Patriot Act

[alphamale]

Congressional negotiators agreed on a deal to renew for for four years, substantially intact. As Martha Stewart would say, this is a good thing!

[seebs]

Er, no. The Patriot Act allows ludicrous abuses of power and a rejection of fundamental rights in favor of defenses that don't work.

Those who would give up an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both and deserve neither.

[MonCapitan2002]

I am with seebs. I would have preferred if the Patriot Act were scrapped completely. No amount of security is worth the sacrifice of our essential and precious liberties.

[seebs]

You might argue that, without such powers, we cannot be adequately defended. I would say, without such liberties, what have we left that is worth defending? The world is rich with police states, and I could move to one any time I wanted.

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by seebs

Er, no. The Patriot Act allows ludicrous abuses of power and a rejection of fundamental rights in favor of defenses that don't work.

.

Uh, no they don't, and yes they will!

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by MonCapitan2002

I am with seebs. I would have preferred if the Patriot Act were scrapped completely. No amount of security is worth the sacrifice of our essential and precious liberties.

It doesn't scarifice your precious liberties!

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by seebs

You might argue that, without such powers, we cannot be adequately defended. I would say, without such liberties, what have we left that is worth defending? The world is rich with police states, and I could move to one any time I wanted.

You could have moved out of the country four years ago, when the act was passed! How has it been, living in a police state for four years?

[seebs]

Do I have the right to a fair and speedy trial, to confront my accusers, to know the charges against me, and to have an attorney? I did five years ago; I don't now. That's a pretty significant liberty.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by alphamale

You could have moved out of the country four years ago, when the act was passed! How has it been, living in a police state for four years?

No worse than 1938 Germany, which was a damn fine place to live, with those nice nationalist folks building up the motherland, defending people from their enemies, and making the trains run on time.

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by seebs

No worse than 1938 Germany, which was a damn fine place to live, with those nice nationalist folks building up the motherland, defending people from their enemies, and making the trains run on time.

Lessee, 1938 Germany: Thousands of Jewish shops, homes and synagogues were attacked. Over 100 Jews were killed and 20,000 arrested in Kristallnacht. By golly, yer right! Same thing that's been goin on here!

[seebs]

If you'd rather use 1937, go ahead.

But we've had a fair number of Arabs locked up, beaten on, and so on. We could, if we wanted to, get there.

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by seebs

If you'd rather use 1937, go ahead.

But we've had a fair number of Arabs locked up, beaten on, and so on. We could, if we wanted to, get there.

The enemy is Al Qaeda - wake up!

[MonCapitan2002]

Originally Posted by seebs

If you'd rather use 1937, go ahead.

But we've had a fair number of Arabs locked up, beaten on, and so on. We could, if we wanted to, get there.

It is quite likely that we will if we are not careful.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by alphamale

The enemy is Al Qaeda - wake up!

The enemy is oversimplification. Powers in conflict succeed by getting people to buy into their conflict.