Pressure teenagers to lie or overpromise...

[Sauron]

....and this is what you get: kids lying about their sexual activity to satisfy peer pressure and religious expectations.

Seems like everything the rabid fundies do backfires and gives the opposite result. Of course they'll never notice or admit it.

Forget sex? Virginity pledgers lie about past

Teens who promise to wait for marriage more likely to deny sexual history

EW YORK - Teenagers who take pledges to remain virgins until marriage are likely to deny having taken the pledge if they later become sexually active. Conversely, those who were sexual active before taking the pledge frequency deny their sexual history, according to new study findings.

These findings imply that virginity pledgers often provide unreliable data, making assessment of abstinence-based sex education programs unreliable. In addition, these teens may also underestimate their risk of exposure to sexually transmitted diseases.

"Teenagers do not report their past sexual activity accurately, with virginity pledgers giving more inaccurate reports of their past sexual activity," study author Janet Rosenbaum, of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, told Reuters Health.

Consequently, rather than rely on self-reports, "studies of virginity pledges must focus on outcomes where we know we can get good information, such as medical STD tests," she added.

Previous research shows that survey respondents tend to answer questions about sexual activity according to their current beliefs, particularly if their current attitudes conflict with their past behaviors. Survey respondents may also underreport or overreport their health risk behavior.

Rosenbaum evaluated retractions of virginity pledges and reports of sexual histories among a nationally representative sample of seventh- through twelfth-grade students who participated in the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health.

The students were first interviewed in 1995 and followed-up in 1996. The first survey included responses from 79 percent of 20,745 students. The second survey included responses from 88 percent of 14,736 students from the first group.

In the initial survey, about 13 percent of adolescents reported that they had taken a pledge of virginity. Just one year later, however, more than half of this group said they had never taken such a pledge, Rosenbaum reports in the American Journal of Public Health.

In addition, more than 1 in 10 students who reported being sexually active in 1995 said that they were virgins in 1996. Students who reported they were sexually active in second survey were more than three times as likely as their peers to deny they had taken a pledge of virginity.

The adolescents' denials of virginity pledges and sexual histories were associated with changes in their sexual and religious identities, the report indicates.

For example, adolescents who abandoned a born-again Christian identity were more than twice as likely as their peers to say they had never taken a virginity pledge.

On the other hand, 28 percent of nonvirgins who later took a virginity pledge retracted their sexual histories during the 1996 survey. The same was true of 18 percent of nonvirgins who later adopted a born-again Christian identity.

Sexually active teens who later took virginity pledges were four times as likely to deny previous reports of sexual activity than were those who had not taken virginity pledges.

According to Rosenbaum, "it's not possible to know why pledgers retracted their sexual history since it's impossible to know whether respondents actually had sex."

"Psychology studies in a variety of contexts seem to demonstrate that people's memories of their behavior are consistent with their beliefs rather than their actual behavior," she told Reuters Health, adding that "anecdotally, some people seem to feel like the answer which is strictly true may not represent themselves accurately."

"If those who deny their sexual pasts perceive their new history as correct, they will underestimate the sexually transmitted disease risk stemming from their prepledge sexual behavior," Rosenbaum adds.

[Leesifer]

I have read your link and the quote. This is normal teenage behaviour is it not?

Originally Posted by Sauron

Seems like everything the rabid fundies do backfires and gives the opposite result. Of course they'll never notice or admit it.

I'm really not being funny, but where does the rabid fundy bit enter into this?

[Ensign Steve]

Everybody who saves themselves for marriage is a rabid fundamentalist. Duh.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by Leesifer

I have read your link and the quote. This is normal teenage behaviour is it not?

I'm really not being funny, but where does the rabid fundy bit enter into this?

The "chastity promise" movement is a fundamentalist program the churches are sponsoring. It frequently consists of large rallies with speakers like Bauer, Dobson, etc. Jr high and high school kids are suckered into attending, making big promises in front of large audiences, signing pledges and getting "virginithy diplomas" and/or t-shirts, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionande...411/cover.html

Or Google "True Love Waits"

I hate Wiki, but here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity_pledge

Virginity pledges (or abstinence pledges) are commitments made by teenagers and young adults to refrain from sexual intercourse until marriage. They are most common in the United States, especially among Evangelical Christian denominations.

Various social and religious groups promote virginity pledges. Leading supporters of the pledges include True Love Waits, which is sponsored by the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Silver Ring Thing. Both run national programs in the United States encouraging virginity pledges. Advocacy of virginity pledges is often coupled with support for abstinence-only sexual education in public schools. Advocates propose that any other type of sexual education would promote what they hold to be immoral and risky behavior, that is, sex outside of marriage. Advocates of virginity pledges argue that they are an effective tool in combating sexually-transmitted infections (STIs) and teenage pregnancy. The conservative (and pro-abstinence) Heritage Foundation reports that "pledgers" are 40% less likely to have children outside of marriage and claim that abstinence education (without focus on contraceptive solutions) is consistent with the values of parents in the United States. [1]

However, scientific studies show that young adults who make an external commitment or pledge to maintain their virginity until marriage have similar rates of STIs as those who have not made an external commitment. [2], [3] Other studies show that the effects of virginity pledges typically include the delay of vaginal sexual intercourse by 12 to 18 months, but with decreased likelihood of condom use at the first encounter. [4] A 2005 Harvard study of virginity pledges showed that the pledges have little staying power among those who take them, with half the adolescents who signed the public promises giving up on their pledges within a year. [5]


"In the end, such pledges are counterproductive to developing habits of lifetime sexual responsibility. When they broke the promise, as almost all did, these fallen angels were less effective contraceptors than their peers who had become active earlier. The study of Philadelphia middle schoolers reported in the JAMA educed the same results." (Harmful to Minors, 113)

Additionally, those who commit to sexual abstinence are more likely to participate in oral and anal sex than those who have not made that commitment. These methods of intercourse carry no risk of pregnancy, but, when unprotected, still allow the transmission of STIs.

[Leesifer]

Originally Posted by Sauron

and this is what you get: kids lying about their sexual activity to satisfy peer pressure and religious expectations

This is still normal teenage behaviour. Peer pressure at school is obvious. But also, in a way so is the religious expectations thing - they're still rebelling in their own way.

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Everybody who saves themselves for marriage is a rabid fundamentalist. Duh.

You are!

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Everybody who saves themselves for marriage is a rabid fundamentalist. Duh.

Nuh-uh. Case in point: Mr. Warren Q. Dingfod, no fundie even at age 20, was a virgin when he married Ms. inland wave.

[Dingfod]

Now, as for the topic at hand...

Lying isn't exclusive to teens. Extensive surveys show the majority of adults lie about a lot of things, including their past, what they're up to now, etc. In fact, one of these studies published about 10-12 years ago showed that 77% of Americans surveyed think lying is OK if it gets you ahead (no pun intended).

[Clutch Munny]

I don't think Sauron was suggesting that only fundies remain virgins, nor that the pledging somehow causes otherwise wholly truthful teens to lie. Since I was familiar with the background issue of pledge crazes that he was presupposing, I took the point to be that this is one more instance of fundamentalism's naive social conservativism going awry. (Earlier studies seem to have shown also that the modest correlation of pledge-taking with reduced sexual activity is at least counterbalanced, and possibly outweighed, by the correlation of pledge-taking with the non-use of condoms when sexual activity does occur.) Out of touch with the reality of teens' sexual and social behaviour, these fundamentalists invest massive time and effort in programmes the entirely predictable main effect of which will be to elicit lies from young people about their current and past sex lives.

[Ari]

*Gasp* you mean teens will lie to satisfy authority figures.
Of course this might be a wake up call for all of those people who think their kids are being honest, especially when they are being pressured into their decisions.

Of course it's not just a teenager thing, there is a whole "born again virgin" movement.

I think society as a whole makes too big an issue over virginity. It really seems like a throwback to when girls were property and mysticism was rampant.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

(Earlier studies seem to have shown also that the modest correlation of pledge-taking with reduced sexual activity is at least counterbalanced, and possibly outweighed, by the correlation of pledge-taking with the non-use of condoms when sexual activity does occur.)

Which is pretty unsurprising to me. I'm sure most kids are sincere when they pledge to remain virgins, so why would they plan for something they don't intend to do? Seems like the main problem with abstinence-only sex-ed in a nutshell.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Which is pretty unsurprising to me. I'm sure most kids are sincere when they pledge to remain virgins, so why would they plan for something they don't intend to do? Seems like the main problem with abstinence-only sex-ed in a nutshell.

Plus, moreover, besides and additionally, if a major reason why they took the pledge in the first place is that they believe that extramarital sex is sinful, it's not just that they'd be planning for something they don't intend to do. It's that planning how to sin would itself be sinful.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Ari

It really seems like a throwback to when girls were property and mysticism was rampant.

You mean 2005?

[BDS]

Young teenagers are inevitably nervous about sex. "Will anyone ever want to have sex with me?" they wonder. The obsess about the question, "Am I attractive?"

It seems to me that abstinence pledges are in part a response to this lack of confidence. Teenagers are encouraged to feel GOOD about their virginity, instead of BAD about it. In a way, this isn't such a terrible thing.

A lot of modern American teenagers suffer guilt and psychological trauma from being virgins. So in a sense, when Ari suggests, "I think society as a whole makes too big an issue over virginity" we should recognize that virginity probably creates low self esteem more often than high self esteem, despite all the hoopla about abstinence pledges.

[lisarea]

The whole concept of virginity is just weird.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by lisarea

The whole concept of virginity is just weird.

I agree.

[Clutch Munny]

You two are clearly just lying about not being virgins, and covering for it.

[Legs]

What do they mean by virginity?

If you give/receive oral, but do not/are not penetrated.. are you still a virgin? If someone masterbates you, are they still a virgin, are you??




.

Phew.. is it getting hot in here?

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

You two are clearly just lying about not being virgins, and covering for it.

Well, I never. When did I ever say I wasn't a virgin?!?!?!

Excuse my hamhanded segue to a story about One of the Most Baffling Personal Encounters I've Had.

I'm walking out of a store with my then-about-ten-year-old LM and a friend of his, and this lady with a really thick I think Chinese accent comes up to me with this clipboard and starts talking something about signing this virginity pledge, which she shows me. And I'm like, "Whu? You want them to sign this?" and she says no, she wants ME to sign it.

I totally shoulda.

[Ari]

Originally Posted by Legs

What do they mean by virginity?

If you give/receive oral, but do not/are not penetrated.. are you still a virgin? If someone masterbates you, are they still a virgin, are you??

Good questions.
Based on some surveys, teens would tell you nothing but intercourse is "sex" and that's the only way you loose your virginity. Which is quite funny since many people seem to link innocent to virgin. But it posses a danger when teens who have little to no sex-ed are doing everything but.

[Ensign Steve]

My friend asked her confirmation sponsor how far could she go without it being sex, and he replied with, "how far can you walk to the edge of a cliff without jumping off?" Heh-heh-heh. Those wacky Catholics.

Also I like that part on the Critic where his sister tells the dressmaker that she can where white to the debutante ball... except for her gloves.

Wheee!

[ms_ann_thrope]

Originally Posted by from Sauron's quote

Additionally, those who commit to sexual abstinence are more likely to participate in oral and anal sex than those who have not made that commitment.

I've known a couple of people who followed virginity pledges (one was a Muslim woman and the other was a man studying theology + planning to enter the seminary) and I just do not comprehend the logic: allowing the pee-pee into the hoo-ha is bad, but up the butt or in the mouth counts as "abstaining" from sex? The kids today, I'll tell ya, it boggles my mind....

[Beth]

Originally Posted by lisarea

Well, I never. When did I ever say I wasn't a virgin?!?!?!

Excuse my hamhanded segue to a story about One of the Most Baffling Personal Encounters I've Had.

I'm walking out of a store with my then-about-ten-year-old LM and a friend of his, and this lady with a really thick I think Chinese accent comes up to me with this clipboard and starts talking something about signing this virginity pledge, which she shows me. And I'm like, "Whu? You want them to sign this?" and she says no, she wants ME to sign it.

I totally shoulda.

It's probably because you look so young...according to your pics. Damn, all I ever do is get carded.

[erimir]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Nuh-uh. Case in point: Mr. Warren Q. Dingfod, no fundie even at age 20, was a virgin when he married Ms. inland wave.

And why were you a virgin?

Or... a question with less humor potential, why did you wait until you married Ms. Inland Wave? Just bein' nosy.

Originally Posted by BDS

A lot of modern American teenagers suffer guilt and psychological trauma from being virgins. So in a sense, when Ari suggests, "I think society as a whole makes too big an issue over virginity" we should recognize that virginity probably creates low self esteem more often than high self esteem, despite all the hoopla about abstinence pledges.

So... we could support virginity pledges. Orrrr... the government could hire hookers for those unfortunate teenagers!

Hm hm! I wonder whose plan will get more support with the teenagers.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by erimir

And why were you a virgin?

Or... a question with less humor potential, why did you wait until you married Ms. Inland Wave? Just bein' nosy.

It's not like I actually wanted to remain a virgin as long as I did, but probably as the result of my uber-Southern-Baptist upbringing and my stupid overactive brain, which would go into overdrive during the heat of passion and go over all the possible consequences over and over again, I never completed the sex act. I was scared, I would always stop just before going through with it. I'm sure I frustrated the hell out of more than one young woman (and a few older ones too) as much as I did myself.

You see, I played around a lot. I liked girls, and they liked me. From age 16 to 19, I went out on a date at least once a week. I remember counting up how many different girls I went out with the year that I was 17, it was 30, maybe 31, depending on whether or not you count a double-date.

I never saw the value in remaining a virgin either, for one thing, by the time I was 16, I had thoroughly rejected my religious upbringing, for another, I just didn't make sense to me that it should make any difference at all. I just couldn't get past the possibility of getting a girl pregnant, because I knew that my overwhelming sense of responsibility would demand that I be there to raise the child. And, I would never ever have tried to influence anyone to have an abortion, even though I have no problem with it myself. I once broke up with a long-term serious relationship when the girl whispered in my ear "I want to have your baby." That scared the hell out of me at age 18. I wasn't ready.

I'm not even sure any of this makes any sense. Does it?

[erimir]

Yeah it does.

I would run away NOW from someone who said they wanted to have my baby. If we pretend for a minute that I'm straight.