Paper or Plastic?

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

We mostly use plastic as well these days.

And handles are very expensive, you want the poor grocery stores to lose profit for customer convenience? What's wrong with you?

Plastic is long-term landfill filler. Paper is relatively quick to biodegrade. Sure, you can go ahead and claim that a plastic bag can be reused, but then so can a paper one. Then, you can claim that plastic sacks can be reused more times...and I'd agree. But, the nature of the user is that they tend to use it once and throw it away (at least in western nations like the US and SA); thus, plastic creates more, and more difficult to handle, waste.

Bottom line, when I remember, I request paper bags (we usually have that choice in these parts).

Note: If handles on paper grocery sacks cuts into profit margins, why is it that the lower-margin stores are the ones that offer them? That seems to have been the case here, at least; the leading stores tried to shift customers to plastic, while the discount outlets (like Trader Joe's) ignored plastic and went for handles on the paper sacks.

Oh... Yes, I know that the plastic used for plastic shopping bags can be recycled, but the recycle market for plastic film is far more volatile and unpredictable than the market for kraft paper (which is the "plain brown paper"), and when the market is down, they get dumped into the usual waste stream, where the plastic doesn't break down for several millenia after being buried in the landfill.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Plastic is long-term landfill filler. Paper is relatively quick to biodegrade. Sure, you can go ahead and claim that a plastic bag can be reused, but then so can a paper one. Then, you can claim that plastic sacks can be reused more times...and I'd agree. But, the nature of the user is that they tend to use it once and throw it away (at least in western nations like the US and SA); thus, plastic creates more, and more difficult to handle, waste.
Bottom line, when I remember, I request paper bags (we usually have that choice in these parts).

The argument I have heard against paper is that trees have to be cut down. I don't think those bags are made from recycled paper, although that would be the "greenest" choice.

My grocery store has a big bin at the front door where you can bring your plastic bags and they recycle them. I keep some because they are useful, and then I periodically gather the extras and put them in the bin when I go shopping.

Note: If handles on paper grocery sacks cuts into profit margins, why is it that the lower-margin stores are the ones that offer them? That seems to have been the case here, at least; the leading stores tried to shift customers to plastic, while the discount outlets (like Trader Joe's) ignored plastic and went for handles on the paper sacks.

I was being sarcastic. Handles are more expensive and big retailers cut every little corner they can because they are so money hungry. And yes, often smaller stores go for the niceties and better service to compete. It's a well known tactic in retail that if you can't compete with the big boys pricewise, you outservice and/or outquality them.

But, I don't think of Trader Joe's as a discount market, they seem to have harder to find gourmet type items, at least here so it's not as easy to directly price compare.

Oh... Yes, I know that the plastic used for plastic shopping bags can be recycled, but the recycle market for plastic film is far more volatile and unpredictable than the market for kraft paper (which is the "plain brown paper"), and when the market is down, they get dumped into the usual waste stream, where the plastic doesn't break down for several millenia after being buried in the landfill.

I agree, but why is it not breaking down really a problem? We certainly aren't running out of landfill space or anything.

[Dingfod]

Those crappy biodegradable cornstarch based plastic sacks can only be reused a few times if handled very carefully; don't poke a hole in one or it's done. Wild Oats supermarket plastic sacks might last 10 or 20 times as long, they're some kind of heavy duty plastic, definitely not throwaway like Walmart sacks.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

The argument I have heard against paper is that trees have to be cut down. I don't think those bags are made from recycled paper, although that would be the "greenest" choice.

Yes... No matter what paper, some trees will need to be cut down. Yet, trees will grow back, I've yet to see a timely replacement of petrochemicals.

Of all the papers, there are only two which have higher levels of recycled paper content than kraft paper (brown paper & cardboard) and that's toilet tissue and newspaper. Brown paper bags are far, far greener a choice than a plastic film bag.

My grocery store has a big bin at the front door where you can bring your plastic bags and they recycle them. I keep some because they are useful, and then I periodically gather the extras and put them in the bin when I go shopping.

As do two out of four of mine. The problem is that recycled plastic is, as I noted, a volatile market. One month, it pays decently and the next they don't want any more, so they don't pay anything....net result: the retailer takes the accumulated plastic and tosses it in the dumpster and it becomes trash. This happens with plastic a lot more than paper, because paper recycling has more developed reprocessing and recycling systems in place. The thing is, even if paper is trashed, it breaks down in a matter of weeks, if not less.

I was being sarcastic. Handles are more expensive and big retailers cut every little corner they can because they are so money hungry. And yes, often smaller stores go for the niceties and better service to compete. It's a well known tactic in retail that if you can't compete with the big boys pricewise, you outservice and/or outquality them.

But, I don't think of Trader Joe's as a discount market, they seem to have harder to find gourmet type items, at least here so it's not as easy to directly price compare.

Well, I guess we must be replete with "gourmet" type groceries, what with Wild Oats, New Seasons and Zupan's (which all supply both paper and plastic). Trader Joe's is distinctly "discount" when compared to these "upscale" stores. Hell, their stuff is often cheaper than the same or similar "gourmet" items at Safeway, Albertson's and Fred Meyer.

I agree, but why is it not breaking down really a problem? We certainly aren't running out of landfill space or anything.

Check again. Don't you remember the trash barge from NYC that floated about the Atlantic and Caribbean for several months, looking for a place to offload? Here in Portland, we now have to ship our garbage 200 miles upriver. On barges. Transshipped twice. Talk about $$. All because no acceptable landfill could be located any closer. Waste generation and it's handling is one of this country's growing problems.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Yes... No matter what paper, some trees will need to be cut down. Yet, trees will grow back, I've yet to see a timely replacement of petrochemicals.

Of all the papers, there are only two which higher levels of recycled paper content than kraft paper (brown paper & cardboard) and that's toilet tissue and newspaper. Brown paper bags are far, far greener a choice than a plastic film bag.

I would agree

Well, I guess we must be replete with "gourmet" type groceries, what with Wild Oats, New Seasons and Zupan's (which all supply both paper and plastic). Trader Joe's is distinctly "discount" when compared to these "upscale" stores. Hell, their stuff is often cheaper than the same or similar "gourmet" items at Safeway, Albertson's and Fred Meyer.

I just shop at Vons. I have only been into a Trader Joe's once and yes, I categorized it with the Wild Oats type market.

Check again. Don't you remember the trash barge from NYC that floated about the Atlantic and Caribbean for several months, looking for a place to offload? Here in Portland, we now have to ship our garbage 200 miles upriver. On barges. Transshipped twice. Talk about $$. All because no acceptable landfill could be located any closer. Waste generation and it's handling is one of this country's growing problems.

Those are regulatory and logistical problems, as you said "waste handling". There is plenty of empty land in the US for landfill use if they can figure out a way to process and ship it efficiently and states can work together. Hell, 95% of Nevada is open, empty desert. The government has figured out ways to get nuclear waste here from all over the country, surely it can be done with garbage.

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Also, why are we having this discussion here? This is a lighthearted thread and I made a joking comment based on my years in retail. You, once again, seem to be getting all angry and short with me about some pet peeve of yours.

[Dingfod]

Can't disturb the Desert Tortoise habitat. My company built a compressor station near Jean, NV. They had to build little 1 foot high fences along the road and a culvert occasionally to allow the tortoises to cross under the road to the station; government regulations.

That said, I know of entire valleys in Northwestern Utah that could be filled to their 10,000 foot brim and wouldn't harm a living thing.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Those are regulatory and logistical problems, as you said "waste handling". There is plenty of empty land in the US for landfill use if they can figure out a way to process and ship it efficiently and states can work together. Hell, 95% of Nevada is open, empty desert.

I daresay, it's probably more than that. I'd say a lot of trash has already been dumped in Nevada. There is a huge pile of trash around the intersection of US 95 and I-515.

One person's "open, empty desert", ready for landfills, is another's "pristine wilderness" providing idyllic living circumstances for a variety of creatures.

It's more than regulatory and logistical problems. Most major American metropolitan areas are facing the filling and closure of their landfills in the next ten years. Either they will be forced to deal with it another way (burning, say...*cough*cough*) or locate and build yet another landfill... I hear there are plenty of empty valleys in Alabama, too. How about in YOUR backyard?

The government has figured out ways to get nuclear waste here from all over the country, surely it can be done with garbage.

They have? You sure coulda fooled me. Tell 'em to come pick up those stinkin' radioactive fuel rods at Trojan ASAP, wouldja? We've been waiting fifteen years on the promise they'd have it all fixed up for us ten years ago.

Also, why are we having this discussion here? This is a lighthearted thread and I made a joking comment based on my years in retail. You, once again, seem to be getting all angry and short with me about some pet peeve of yours.

I dunno... The topic came up. I did not realize that you were the arbiter of what is discussed and what is not. Or even what is lighthearted or not. Excuuuuuuse me.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

I daresay, it's probably more than that. I'd say a lot of trash has already been dumped in Nevada. There is a huge pile of trash around the intersection of US 95 and I-515.

One person's "open, empty desert", ready for landfills, is another's "pristine wilderness" providing idyllic living circumstances for a variety of creatures.

Understood, but most of Nevada is not protected wilderness and is owned by the government, anyway.

It's more than regulatory and logistical problems. Most major American metropolitan areas are facing the filling and closure of their landfills in the next ten years. Either they will be forced to deal with it another way (burning, say...*cough*cough*) or locate and build yet another landfill... I hear there are plenty of empty valleys in Alabama, too.

Again, many cities have closed landfills and made them into beautiful parks, golf courses, and other recreational areas and simply opened new ones. Some states ship their trash to neighboring states with more landfill space without issue. It has been done, so it can be done. Just a matter of the agencies involved getting their shit together.

They have? You sure coulda fooled me. Tell 'em to come pick up those stinkin' radioactive fuel rods ASAP, wouldja? We've been waiting fifteen years on the promise they'd have it all fixed up for us ten years ago.

Yucca Mountain has been approved. We are still fighting it, especially now that they found some of the scientific documents were falsified, but the Feds seem like they ain't budging. They supposedly have all the logistics for shipping it here ready to go.

I dunno... The topic came up. I did not realize that you were the arbiter of what is discussed and what is not. Excuuuuuuse me.

I am not as upset about discussing it as I was your tone (or at least the tone I perceived). You were getting kinda rude with me and I don't understand why.