A non-voter and proud of it, or, Why are people mean to me?

[Bella]

A coworker friend and I came to the conclusion (seperately) that voting in the United States is a waste of time - not because we're liberals or conservatives, although she would technically be labelled a conservative and I a liberal, but because we think the process stinks and is a waste of our time and effort. We made buttons for our jackets that say "not voting in '04 (or ever)" and you wouldn't believe the shit that we've gotten for it.

First of all, you have the bleeding-heart liberals who grab my hand and say "don't you know what it was like for your suffragette sisters who gave their lives for your right to vote back in the early 20th century?" Yeah, yeah. So guilt me into voting. That will really do something. Then you have the other people (don't know if they're conservatives or not but they're definately 'other') who say "this is a great country and you're spitting in its face" or "you're not really a citizen of America." I recognise that America is a great country and I think I have my certificate in my safety deposit box that says I became a citizen on 21 March 1985, thank you very much.

What really grabs me are the people who say "geez, you're wasting your vote - just go out and vote for Bush/Kerry, so at least Kerry/Bush doesn't get your vote." Um, how am I wasting my vote if I don't vote, versus going out and voting for someone I don't want to be president just so I use my vote? It's like having a dollar and flushing it down the toilet versus spending it on a rotten apple - either way, you don't have your dollar, except that in the second situation you're stuck with a rotten apple.

I just don't understand how not voting is seen as such a huge smear against my character. I have the right to choose and I choose not to vote. Just because I made a choice that isn't popular and that some people think is "wrong" doesn't mean that I'm suddenly an irresponsible citizen. It's damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't: the Repblicans think that the Democrats are wrong and irresponsible and the Democrats think the Republicans are wrong and irresponsible. So where do we fit in?

We were asked to remove the buttons from our jackets, and two days later everyone else in the store had to remove their Bush/Kerry pins and other political items ("Real Women Vote!") or personal items from their nametags. At least the management was fair and evenhanded on the subject.

[Dingfod]

I used to think my vote didn't really matter either, but I voted anyway, usually tossing my statewide or national election votes away on a third party which had no chance anyway, kind of my little protest. On judicial retention votes I would automatically vote no just on the principal that nobody, not even judges should be secure for life. Well, one time, this nice fellow I actually knew personally, a county court judge, lost his retention election by... ONE VOTE!

[wildernesse]

We're responsible for the community we live in--how it is shaped and what its future and present is and will be . People who don't involve themselves in the mechanics of this are abdicating their responsibility to their community--they aren't pulling their own weight. So it boils down to it not being fair to the community.

I think of it in the same way that I would think of someone saying: I'm proud that I'm a poor mother!

[The Lone Ranger]

While I'd agree that there is often no one to vote for, there's usually someone to vote against.

Let me ask you: would you rather see Bush or Kerry in the White House next year? If you say "Kerry," but don't vote for him, you're making it ever-so-slightly more likely that Bush will win the election.

As corrupt as the system is, throwing up your hands and saying "to Hell with it" is surrendering. The fewer people who vote, the less the politicians will have to worry about trying to appeal to the interests of the "common people," and the more they can focus on catering to their true masters -- the rich and powerful.

Remember this: the rich are not going to stop voting. The more poor and middle-class people give up on voting, the more blatantly will politicians be able to ignore their well-being.

Cheers,

Michael

[viscousmemories]

I'm almost 36 years old and have never voted for anything in my life, but I'm going to vote in this presidential election. Not because I've had a change of heart and suddenly believe that voting matters, but because lisarea is giving me a dollar to vote for all the candidates she picked out and I can really use that dollar. The only time I considered voting in the past was the last presidential election, and suffice it to say that the guy I would've voted for lost the state I was in but garnered the most votes overall. And lost. And now I live in GWB's home state... hmmm.

[John the Non-Baptist]

Assuming you don't live in a vacuum, what's essentially happening is that you're entrusting your life and livelihood to people who may or may not have your best interests at heart. You're saying you're happy to go along with whatever happens--which might work out fine until some random administration policy hits home. Maybe you lose overtime benefits. Maybe you get drafted. Maybe they start rounding up all the Minnesotans and putting them in concentration camps.

Extreme example? Sure. But by voting you not only stand up for your right to control your own destiny, you join a vast community of people who are standing up for theirs. An apathetic populace won't stand long.

[LadyShea]

I would be a bit more sympathetic Bree, if your ballot only had the President to vote on. However, a ballot includes judges, Congresspeople and Senators, oftentimes important proposals or amendments...things which CAN affect your day to day life.

For example, in Nevada, we are voting on competing amendment proposals regarding tort reform that will greatly impact health care, as well as a a minimum wage increase (Frankie, as a tipped employee, makes minimum wage) These are important issues and I want to have my say. Skip the President if you want, or write in Micky Mouse, or whatever, but do let your voice be heard on the other issues.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by John the Non-Baptist

Assuming you don't live in a vacuum, what's essentially happening is that you're entrusting your life and livelihood to people who may or may not have your best interests at heart. You're saying you're happy to go along with whatever happens--which might work out fine until some random administration policy hits home. Maybe you lose overtime benefits. Maybe you get drafted. Maybe they start rounding up all the Minnesotans and putting them in concentration camps.

Extreme example? Sure. But by voting you not only stand up for your right to control your own destiny, you join a vast community of people who are standing up for theirs. An apathetic populace won't stand long.

Well just speaking for myself, I have never considered not voting equivelant to saying I'm happy to go along with whatever happens. More like I'm resigned to going along with that over which I have no real control. As much as I would like to believe that "every vote counts", that just obviously isn't true. And even if it were, there are never any guarantees that the people you vote for will actually do what they promise once in office.

I dunno. I just think it's more than a little idealistic to equate voting in a presidential election with "controlling your own destiny". My destiny is unlikely to be profoundly affected by the administration of the government over the next four years, and even if it is I have no real way of knowing whether that change is more likely to be for the better or worse under Kerry than it would be under GWB.

Then again I'm cynical and pessimistic and it's past my bedtime.

[John the Non-Baptist]

I understand where you're coming from.

My response is this (and it's my bedtime too, so who knows how articulate this will sound): Even if I believed as you did, and felt pretty certain that my destiny was unlikely to be affected in the next four years, I could still think of a fairly large group of people whose destiny almost certainly will be affected: young men and women of draft age.

So, hypothetically, let's say the upcoming election was to be a referendum on the question "Should the military draft be reinstated?" Even though, at age 44, I'm probably safe from such a thing and thus unlikely to be affected by the result, I'd cast a vote on behalf of those who would be.

That's why I'll be voting Nov. 2. I'm not voting just for me, but for everyone who shares my views.

I wonder what this post will look like in the morning. Zzzzz--good night, all.

[Petra]

Shit, I wish I could vote in this US Presidential election. It feels like so much on such a big scale is riding on this one.

[Socratoad]

Apathy apathy everywhere but who gives a damn

[Bella]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Skip the President if you want, or write in Micky Mouse, or whatever, but do let your voice be heard on the other issues.

You are right, LadyShea, and I've forgotten this. Thanks for reminding me! Local elections are where votes really do count - one vote can make a difference. Not so in the national election, which is another reason why I am completely apathetic.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I'm almost 36 years old and have never voted for anything in my life, but I'm going to vote in this presidential election. Not because I've had a change of heart and suddenly believe that voting matters, but because lisarea is giving me a dollar to vote for all the candidates she picked out and I can really use that dollar.

Ahem. Just a clarification. I will give you a dollar to vote, PLUS I have provided you with the correct answers, WHICH THE DOLLAR DOES NOT COMPEL YOU TO ABIDE BY. So the coercion was just a coercion to vote, not to vote in any specific manner.

Just so we're all clear on that.

As far as the arguments against voting, it's true. Except in rare cases like that guy Warren fired, it's unlikely that, even at the most local level, your specific vote is going to make a difference. (Although it can and does happen sometimes at the local level.)

The fact is, it's just a collective effort. It works when we all do it, but nobody individually can make that happen. There really is very little personal incentive to vote (except that, if you're registered and agree to vote, I will pay you a dollar, too, and give you the correct answers if you'd like).

It's just one big giant national compromise. I've been having a problem with voting for Kerry. I've since decided that I can vote for him with a clear conscience, but I'm traditionally sort of a protest voter, because the major party candidates never come close enough to what I think is right. But there's a big compromise element to that aspect, too. Everyone who votes gets a vote, with no preference given to those whose opinions are better informed, better argued, or anything. Everyone's counts the same, regardless. It's not really fair. I don't like that my vote, which I usually think about long and hard and only make after I research and understand what I'm voting for, counts the same as someone who walks in and votes a straight party line based on some irrelevant social issue or name recognition or something like that.

But I'm not about to protest that by not voting. I'm OK with knowing that my vote is not significant in itself, but just one of many individual votes that make up a big community compromise. People probably take offense to people who refuse to vote because it is a chore. It's just something we do as a community effort, not because our personal vote is going to make such a big difference, but because it's something we all need to do for it to work. You do not end up seeing an individual result for your vote. If you think about it, it really is a poor use of your personal time. The result is spread out among many people. It's a team effort of a whole bunch of individuals who sacrifice a little of their time to make their decisions as part of a huge national|state|county|city|district wide effort. It can seem almost petulant, in a way, when people say, effectively, "If I'm not going to get my way, I'm not going to bother." The goal is not to get your way. The goal is to be one of a great many who all go to their polling places to participate in the democratic process.

And I actually kind of like voting. I like walking down to the polling place, filling out my ballot, and getting my sticker, which I put on my steering wheel, and try to keep intact until the next time I get a sticker. It's almost like a holiday for me, only slightly less pointless on an individual level than other occasions.

So, anyway, want a dollar? I figure that, even though I'm still all unemployed, I should be able to scrape up a buck for anyone who needs that incentive to go vote. And unless I get a million requests, I'll do crib sheets for anyone who wants them, too. Which the dollar would not compel you to abide by. In fact, the two offers are not a package, but two discrete and unrelated offers. Just so everyone's clear on that.

[LadyXoc]

I used to think it didn't matter. The last three years have shown me differently. I'm not marrying these slobs, I'm hiring them to do a job. I don't even care if Kerry is my dream candidate, I just care if he has a big enough shovel to clear a semi path through this shit. And I will vote, though I'm fed up with the posturing and the corruption and the vapid stupidity of idiots who prefer slogans and cartoon characters to rational discussion over serious issues. I will vote and carry signs and step through ankle deep dogshit to put an end to this petty, posturing, bigoted, incomptent Bushocracy.

As long as I still have a job, I could give y'all 50 cents on lisarea's dollar.

[Roland98]

Originally Posted by Bree

Not so in the national election, which is another reason why I am completely apathetic.

I'm surprised people still have this attitude after the last presidential election, when 2 states (Florida and New Mexico) were won/lost with a margin of less than a thousand votes (537 and 363 votes, respectively). Who knows how things are going to turn out this year? The last 4 years could have been very different if just a thousand more Gore supporters turned out in those states.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Roland98

I'm surprised people still have this attitude after the last presidential election, when 2 states (Florida and New Mexico) were won/lost with a margin of less than a thousand votes (537 and 363 votes, respectively). Who knows how things are going to turn out this year? The last 4 years could have been very different if just a thousand more Gore supporters turned out in those states.

Yep, I am in a battle ground state....my vote might make a difference.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by lisarea

It's just something we do as a community effort, not because our personal vote is going to make such a big difference, but because it's something we all need to do for it to work. You do not end up seeing an individual result for your vote. If you think about it, it really is a poor use of your personal time. The result is spread out among many people. It's a team effort of a whole bunch of individuals who sacrifice a little of their time to make their decisions as part of a huge national|state|county|city|district wide effort. It can seem almost petulant, in a way, when people say, effectively, "If I'm not going to get my way, I'm not going to bother." The goal is not to get your way. The goal is to be one of a great many who all go to their polling places to participate in the democratic process.

Bingo. I'd never thought about it exactly these terms before but it strikes me as dead-on. Voting is a collective effort we make to be involved in our democracy. The systemic failures and injustices of the system don't change that, nor does the fact that our individual action means nothing taken by itself.

And I actually kind of like voting. I like walking down to the polling place, filling out my ballot, and getting my sticker, which I put on my steering wheel, and try to keep intact until the next time I get a sticker.

I like it too, especially with the punch ballots 'cause that's just plain fun. I don't share your sticker fetish, although I probably would if they were puffy or scratch-n-sniff or something.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Bree

A coworker friend and I came to the conclusion (seperately) that voting in the United States is a waste of time - not because we're liberals or conservatives, although she would technically be labelled a conservative and I a liberal, but because we think the process stinks and is a waste of our time and effort. We made buttons for our jackets that say "not voting in '04 (or ever)" and you wouldn't believe the shit that we've gotten for it.

I don't think you deserved quite that much shit, but honestly, you do deserve some shit. The fact that the process stinks doesn't change the fact that voting still is one of the most powerful political acts you can do, and frankly, it takes very little time and effort.

First of all, you have the bleeding-heart liberals who grab my hand and say "don't you know what it was like for your suffragette sisters who gave their lives for your right to vote back in the early 20th century?" Yeah, yeah. So guilt me into voting. That will really do something. Then you have the other people (don't know if they're conservatives or not but they're definately 'other') who say "this is a great country and you're spitting in its face" or "you're not really a citizen of America." I recognise that America is a great country and I think I have my certificate in my safety deposit box that says I became a citizen on 21 March 1985, thank you very much.

Yes, guilting you into voting is ridiculous. Yes, speaking in essentials, you're a citizen. However, functionally, if you don't do the things a citizen is entitled to do, then in a sense, no, you're not a citizen.

What really grabs me are the people who say "geez, you're wasting your vote - just go out and vote for Bush/Kerry, so at least Kerry/Bush doesn't get your vote." Um, how am I wasting my vote if I don't vote, versus going out and voting for someone I don't want to be president just so I use my vote? It's like having a dollar and flushing it down the toilet versus spending it on a rotten apple - either way, you don't have your dollar, except that in the second situation you're stuck with a rotten apple.

That's the result of America's winner-take-all system with two corrupt parties with a stranglehold on power: you're always voting for the lesser of two evils. Nonetheless, Kerry is so much less evil than Bush that this time around I don't think it's a close call. A half-rotten apple is so much better than a poisoned composted apple; at least you can eat half of it.

I just don't understand how not voting is seen as such a huge smear against my character. I have the right to choose and I choose not to vote. Just because I made a choice that isn't popular and that some people think is "wrong" doesn't mean that I'm suddenly an irresponsible citizen.

We have the right to choose to do all kinds of bad things. It's a smear against your character because voting is really easy to do, and despite the narrowed choices in our not-really-a-democracy, it still makes big differences. Especially since you're in Minnesota, which is a swing state this time around, so your vote for president actually does count. If you were in Massachusetts, or Georgia, or California, or any of the other states that are reliably one way or the other, I wouldn't care that much. But in a state that could go either way, it makes me pissed--especially since I don't have that chance, being in a state where my presidential vote can't influence the outcome.

It's damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't: the Repblicans think that the Democrats are wrong and irresponsible and the Democrats think the Republicans are wrong and irresponsible. So where do we fit in?

They're both wrong and irresponsible; in my informed opinion, the Democrats are less wrong and irresponsible, and especially at lower more local levels, there are sometimes actual good choices for candidate, like Greens or various independents, or even individual Democrats (or Republicans) with integrity. Non-voters fit in nowhere: they refuse to play the game, abdicating their responsibility, and consequently get shit from everyone.

I'm sorry, Bree; I just don't think you have a good justification.

[ApostateAbe]

Bree, you should be the founder of an organization called, "Don't Rock the Vote."

I am voting. Here is why: People who don't vote don't have their opinions taken seriously by politicians. For example, young people don't vote. As a result, the rights of young people are removed. People between the ages of 18 and 21 can't buy alcohol. Why was that law passed? Why not? No senator, governor, mayor, commissioner, judge, or president is going to cater to a voting block that doesn't exist. If it weren't for parents, young adults would be drafted into the military and sent to the slaughterhouse. Why not?

[Adam]

For the longest time, I refused to vote on the grounds that the system was broken and corrupt and, while I was implicitly supporting the broken system by living in this nation without attempting to stage a revolution, I didn't want to explicitly support the broken system by actively participating in it. Although I retain my convictions that a) the system is broken and b) the major parties are both corrupt, I've become much more pragmatic over the years. I take it as a given that my government is going to take many of the principles I care most about, drag them through the mud, step on them, and leave them out in the rain. Having accepted that difficult truth, it's mush easier to accept the notion that I can participate in a corrupt political system in order to nudge my government toward behaving ever so slightly less monstrously.

It boils down to this. I'm very much a civil libertarian, an internationalist, and an economic progressive. Neither major party reflects my views, and third parties are, in a winner take all system, largely a waste of time. However, I'm willing to vote for the party least likely to take an authoritarian, nationalist, economically exploitive view of the way a country ought to be run, and that's the Democrats. They may take my ideals, place them face down, and violate them without benefit of lubrication, but the Rebuplicans do the same, and wipe their dicks on the curtains afterwards.

The idea is to limit the damage done by the corporate parties while we find a better way to choose our leaders. Voting is one part of it, to keep the party likely to do the least amount of damage in power (whichever party that may be, according to your particular views, but the correct answer is the Democrats )...more importantly, I try to be politely outspoken about my ideas, to get them into the public consciousness, and to encourage others to do the same. Hoefully, in the not too far off future, an alternative party will be able to gain enough support to displace one of the big teo, and then, maybe, just maybe, that party will be able to enact true election reform, so that we aren't stuck with two bland corporate conglomerates to vote for.

That was sort of rambling, and probably doesn't make much sense...

[Beth]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Yep, I am in a battle ground state....my vote might make a difference.

Yup, I feel the same. I've always voted, but the past Presidential election showed me just how much my one vote mattered.

[Beth]

I like it too, especially with the punch ballots 'cause that's just plain fun. I don't share your sticker fetish, although I probably would if they were puffy or scratch-n-sniff or something.

I miss the old ballots. I had such a blast punching the votes in. Now it's just some sucky touch screen system that has no data back up and can be hacked with the security loopholes, unless they were fixed.

[Bella]

Originally Posted by Blake

Yes, speaking in essentials, you're a citizen. However, functionally, if you don't do the things a citizen is entitled to do, then in a sense, no, you're not a citizen.

I really don't understand how, if one doesn't take advantage of a right that is entitled to them, they somehow abdicate their citizenship to the country. I'm entitled to vote, not required to vote.

Originally Posted by Blake

Especially since you're in Minnesota, which is a swing state this time around, so your vote for president actually does count. If you were in Massachusetts, or Georgia, or California, or any of the other states that are reliably one way or the other, I wouldn't care that much. But in a state that could go either way, it makes me pissed--especially since I don't have that chance, being in a state where my presidential vote can't influence the outcome.

I'm probably going to get a lot of shit for admitting this, but I don't understand how living in a swing state makes my vote count. Minnesota still has an electoral college, which means they can still vote against the populace, right?

[John the Non-Baptist]

Originally Posted by Bree

Minnesota still has an electoral college, which means they can still vote against the populace, right?[/COLOR]

No.

Whoever wins the popular vote in your state wins those electoral votes.

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by Bree

I'm probably going to get a lot of shit for admitting this, but I don't understand how living in a swing state makes my vote count. Minnesota still has an electoral college, which means they can still vote against the populace, right?

In theory they could, I suppose, but if the popular vote in Minnesota is for Kerry, say, and any of the electors "defect" and cast their ballot for Bush, there would be Hell to pay. I doubt very much any elector would actually cast a ballot contrary to the way the popular vote goes in his/her state.

Cheers,

Michael