blasphemy

[Listener]

I'm grumpy!

Sod that - I'm bloody furious!!!

Teacher on blasphemy charge over 'Muhammad' teddy bear | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

There's no greater compliment can be paid to anyone than have a doll (or teddybear) named after her/him ...

As an atheist, maybe my sensitivities are a a bit dulled in this direction but I always thought that "blasphemy" was about insulting God or "gods".

If insulting a prophet is "blasphemy" then it seems to me that those who hold the teaching are transgressing the first commandment!

Western "Christians" have made sillier claims - perhaps we should use tham ....

How about putting some islamic teachers in prison for allowing kids to call dollies "Mary"?

Having spit my venom ......

How do we sort such triviaities that threaten our world and the freedoms of individuals?

[livius drusus]

I'm not sure how Sudan prosecuting people for blasphemy threatens freedom of individuals not in Sudan. This sort of thing is probably the least of their concerns right about now, what with the genocide and all.

P.S. - Isn't this more of a News or Philosophy thread?

[Dingfod]

How many Muslims have named their own sons Muhammad? All blasphemers, 40 lashes to the lot of them.

That this teacher is even in a jail at this time is outrageous, let alone slated to receive a whipping. I say we get the fuck out of here and nuke the place from orbit.

[Listener]

Hi Liv ..

I'm allowed to let off some steam ....

It seems to me that triviality is dictating the policies we are obliged to follow.

People everywhere are being de-humanised by their non-compliance with some authoritarian dictat or other.

It was my former friend Ayn Rand who referred to this kind of thing as "tribalism" - and no I'm not talking about the African tribes of Sudan - by which I mean the way we all (the vast majority and I include myself) divide the world into "us and them" - usually ignoring things on which we agree ...

Genocide is about as bad as it gets - but it does have roots in what you're allowed to call your teddy!

[Listener]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

How many Muslims have named their own sons Muhammad? All blasphemers, 40 lashes to the lot of them.

That this teacher is even in a jail at this time is outrageous, let alone slated to receive a whipping. I say we get the fuck out of here and nuke the place from orbit.

erm ..

[livius drusus]

I'm allowed to let off some steam ....

It seems to me that triviality is dictating the policies we are obliged to follow.

Indeed you are, and I'm allowed to question the link you're establishing between this event and policies we are obliged to follow. I don't see it. People can name teddy bears whatever they want in the US, and I'm pretty sure the same thing goes for the UK.

Sudan's application of Islamic law doesn't have any effect at all on the policies I am obliged to follow. What policies are you obliged to follow that you see as dictated by the trivialities of Islamic law in another country?

[Clutch Munny]

I wonder if it would work for her to claim that the bear was named after one of the bajillion other guys also named Muhammed, and not after The Prophet himself?

[livius drusus]

Not to mention the fact that she didn't actually name the bear, but just allowed the kids in her classroom to pick the name. According to the Sudanese ambassador to the UK, she'll most likely be cleared.

[Listener]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Indeed you are ..... What policies are you obliged to follow that you see as dictated by the trivialities of Islamic law?

I hope I've been fair with the above editing ....

(As I've just implied, I wonder if some moslems arer making an idol of their prophet ....)

The first thing that comes to mind in the U.K. is not to call Islamic law trivial! It would be hypocritical of me not to point out that the naming of teddies is about as trivial as you can get!

I'm looking for some kind of solution ...

O.K. there are politically driven "shit stirrers" who will make sure that innocence, even benevolence, is misunderstood but I don't think ordinary folk thrive on malevolence.

If I'm right and ordinary folk would rather understand than confront - how do we build (unbiassed) bridges?

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by Listener

I'm looking for some kind of solution ...

O.K. there are politically driven "shit stirrers" who will make sure that innocence, even benevolence, is misunderstood but I don't think ordinary folk thrive on malevolence.

If I'm right and ordinary folk would rather understand than confront - how do we build (unbiassed) bridges?

We don't by blowing every incident out of proportion, that's for sure.

I am not saying you are doing that here Listener, but I'm getting a bit tired of Right-Wingers on the net and Right-Wing politicians shouting bloody murder about an incident like this (and as liv pointed out the woman will most likely be cleared anyway) when they are the very first to advocate the locking up of people over here without any charges. This is another one of those incidents and I see it all over the net. And on the other hand Muslim fundamentalists in Egypt or Pakistan or wherever stirring up shit about cartoons in Europe are pissing me off just as bad.

[Caligulette]

Originally Posted by Watser?

..... I'm getting a bit tired of Right-Wingers on the net and Right-Wing politicians shouting bloody murder about an incident like this (and as liv pointed out the woman will most likely be cleared anyway) when they are the very first to advocate the locking up of people over here without any charges.

It is interesting, isn't it, when often the accompanying cry as the gate swings shut is "It's in the name of freedom!".

[Shelli]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

I wonder if it would work for her to claim that the bear was named after one of the bajillion other guys also named Muhammed, and not after The Prophet himself?

It seems that that's not the issue judging from liv's link below...

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Not to mention the fact that she didn't actually name the bear, but just allowed the kids in her classroom to pick the name. According to the Sudanese ambassador to the UK, she'll most likely be cleared.

Although a common name among Muslim men, connecting the prophet's name to an animal would be seen as insulting by many Muslims.

[ZEZOZE]

it's a total propaganda story. each time it comes up at work, i make a comment and turn away. blech!

[ZEZOZE]

btw...i think both she and the sudanese government are idiots.

[Nullifidian]

Originally Posted by Listener

The first thing that comes to mind in the U.K. is not to call Islamic law trivial! It would be hypocritical of me not to point out that the naming of teddies is about as trivial as you can get!

So it is actually against the policy of the U.K. government to call Islamic law "trivial"? And yet you've done that in this thread.

Write to us from Wandsworth, will you?

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Listener

I hope I've been fair with the above editing ....

Sure you have.

The first thing that comes to mind in the U.K. is not to call Islamic law trivial!

That's not an actual policy, though. I'm quite sure you or anyone else in the UK can call Islamic law as a whole or elements thereof trivial without any negative repercussions whatsoever.

I'm looking for some kind of solution ...

I'm just trying to pinpoint the problem first. I still don't really understand what it is that's troubling you.

O.K. there are politically driven "shit stirrers" who will make sure that innocence, even benevolence, is misunderstood but I don't think ordinary folk thrive on malevolence.

If I'm right and ordinary folk would rather understand than confront - how do we build (unbiassed) bridges?

Well, I think being careful not to extrapolate general conclusions -- especially pejorative ones -- from individual incidents or personal experiences is a good first step in building understanding.

In the article I linked to, several deeply religious Muslims were described as perplexed by the arrest, and at least one Sudanese government official noted that the case seems to have little merit and the public outrage is premature.

So it doesn't look to me like your opinion of the case and many other Sudanese muslims' opinions are very different at all.

[Watser?]

Hmmm, it seems the teacher IS being charged. The Sudanese of course have their own idiot brigade:

Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.

"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said in a statement.

On the other hand:

The Muslim Council of Britain reacted angrily to the news, saying it was "appalled" and demanded Mrs Gibbons' immediate release.

"This is a disgraceful decision and defies common sense. There was clearly no intention on the part of the teacher to deliberately insult the Islamic faith," said Secretary-General Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, in a strongly-worded statement.

"We call upon the Sudanese President, Omar al-Bashir, to intervene in this case without delay to ensure that Ms Gibbons is freed from this quite shameful ordeal," said Dr Bari.

[California Tanker]

It was pointed out on an Irish board that if a teacher in Ireland allowed a teddy to be named 'Jesus', she'd stand a fair chance of being out of a job.

That said, it certainly would not have gotten to the extent of crimnal charges.

NTM

[Histrionica]

Are there any Jesus Teddy Bears? Or Moses? Because i haven't seen any. I know with the RCs you can purchase icons, but... cuddly little stuffies for the kiddos?

I've never noticed any. Where's the comparison? Or am i being completely obtuse?

[Smilin]

Great marketing idea Histrionica!

Jeebus Teddy Bears!

[California Tanker]

Hell, didn't the Buddy Christ cause enough trouble?

NTM

I don't consider responses by the Stop Being A Meanie To Me 'Cuz I'm Catholic League to really constitute trouble.

[Listener]

Oo - thanks for the input folks

Liv's right in her response to me of course, - I used to insist on people saying what they meant and explaining why that was their position - I think I failed both tests

I think I got carried away with sympathy for the one who got imprisoned!

If she wasn't there for the good of her pupils she had to be masochistic!

Teaching seven-year-olds about the warm and cuddly teddy-bear just can't be a malevolent act!

My question was an honest one - "How do we build bridges?"

I'm pleased about all the references to the positive aspects of Islam. Islam beat "Christendom" into a cocked hat during the dark ages ...

I've picked this link at random from dozens Muslim Spain and European Culture

My point is that these achievements were not the result of being pedantic about what you called your teddy bear!

I'm angry (I think) because people with the best of peaceful motives are being imprisoned in the name of "Islam".

Fish out the roots and you find "salaam", "shalom", "salem" ....

Mainly, I'm angry because there are people pretending to be islamic who will make it their business to engender hatred on any pretext!

[Watser?]

You're very right Listener. 'Western' culture owes a lot to 'Islamic' culture - both cultures are/were actually cosmopolitic multicultures, that was Islam's strength in the Middle Ages and IMO is the West's strength now.

[Listener]

Originally Posted by Histrionica

Are there any Jesus Teddy Bears? Or Moses? Because i haven't seen any. I know with the RCs you can purchase icons, but... cuddly little stuffies for the kiddos?

I've never noticed any. Where's the comparison? Or am i being completely obtuse?

Hi Histrionica,

I'm afraid I led you down this path with "Mary" dolls.

Islamic folk have a "thing" about artificial representation. It stems from the rejection of the worship of idols and has a cultural tradition in the absence of direct representation in art - hence the beauty of the abstract in islamic art:-

Count On

I can understand why it would be unacceptable to call a teddy "Allah". There can't be many "God" dolls in our culture - unless they're deliberately provocative.

With a teddy called "Mohammed" we have a cultural borderline misfit - it's innocent in one culture and repugnant in another.

How do we build bridges?