VP Debate Sucks (too depressed for rant)

[livius drusus]

I get a tie feeling from this. Cheney is a monster, but his shit is tight. Edwards is rambler, but at least he's getting a few good ones in. Ifill is making a retarded big deal about the global test bullshit from the first debate.

I dunno, guys. I can't shake this bad, bad feeling.

[livius drusus]

He he... Edwards got a nice Halliburton dig in there. Now Cheney is repeating the talking points he just made. Okay. Feeling just a bit better about it.

[Scotty]

What is there is what isn't there.

Listen to what they don't answer (especially Cheney).

-Scott

[livius drusus]

I'm trying, Scotty, but it doesn't seem to lessen the pessimism.

(Hey, cute custom title. When did you change it?)

[livius drusus]

Ugh. Edwards just screwed the pooch on the don't mention your runningmate question. His big smile and oops laugh just makes him look like a kid.

[Scotty]

I changed it during your rant about incorrect formatting

One of the glaring omissions, was when Edwards was saying Halliburton had all of the offshore accounts (for evading taxes). Cheney said nothing.

Interesting.

I am recording this one too. I am not a fan of the format though, but it does make it easy to edit in chapter stops for the DVD so you can jump to questions and followups (I did that with the previous debate, works well).

-Scott

[Petra]

Shit! Shit, shit, shit! I don't have cable.

Scotty *looks at Scotty with puppy dog eyes*, are you gonna do the same with this that you did with the Bush/Kerry one? *whimpers and offers to fetch the paper and your slippers*

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Scotty

I am recording this one too.
-Scott

[Scotty]

I ran something that blew up my recording, but I will see if CSPAN is showing it again. It was only about 2-3 minutes of the end. But, I will get it, I hope

-Scott

[Goliath]

The main thing that I was thinking during this debate was that I'm soooo glad that:

a). Cheney is not our president (he's evil, but much more of an intelligent evil than Dubya).

b). That there was some kind of major sports game (football? baseball? Dunno...some major final 4/playoff/whatever game) going on during the debate.

I wouldn't be too surprised if the consensus was that Cheney won it, although I suspect it will be much less of a victory for Cheney than Kerry had over Dubya last week.

[livius drusus]

I think you're right, Goliath. Cheney is cold and smooth. Edwards looks like a puppy next to him. Still, it's basically a null set, I think, in terms of its effect. Let's hope Bush shows off his terminal idiocy some more in the next 2 debates.

[Godless Dave]

I missed the debate because I was watching REM and Bruce Springsteen (with special guests John Fogarty and Neil Young) at a Vote for Change concert. If you're feeling pessimistic try to go to one of these shows. Holy shit, that was a lot of positive energy.

Debate, schmebate. Mostly only political junkies watch them.

[livius drusus]

That is so fucking cool, Dave! You wouldn't by any chance be inspired to write up a review of the concert, would you?

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

... I was watching REM and Bruce Springsteen (with special guests John Fogarty and Neil Young) at a Vote for Change concert.

Awesome. Milwaukee got fucking John Cougar and "Babyface" somebody. So the debate was way better.

My, but that Cheney is one miserable old cocksucker, is he not? No wonder they call him "Dick."

[Scotty]

Well, I set to re-record the debate on CSPAN-1 and obviously they don't know what a "schedule" means because they must have started about 5 minutes or more early. So, I don't have this one properly recorded, so unless I can find it again I won't bother with this one (by the way www.cspan.com has it on streaming video).

I lost the first portion I had (well, almost all of it) because I was installing something at it crashed out the program recording the debate and the file was corrupted. Oh well, pretty depressing thinking of either one of them in a position of power.

Well, except that Cheney has been for many many years. It seems to make so much difference that different "partys" get in "power".

I think all of the government(s) need liposuction down to the bone.

-Scott

[Beth]

I am so bad. Besides the fact that I wanted Edwards for Prez to begin with because I agreed with his plattform most, I would have voted for him last night sheerly on his shaggable looks and presense. *swoons* Good job I do not work around the Senate building.

[lisarea]

This debate was no big deal. I'm a little surprised to see the polls calling this for Edwards, but I went and lied on all the polls I could find, so I guess I'm just not the only one. Regardless, I don't think it makes a difference much. In the cold hard light of day, Cheney's arguments are getting torn apart. As disjointed and sad as it was in its original form, Cheney is coming out of this with more incriminating soundbites. It's not so much the flow of the debate, but how the arguments look taken out of context.

Did you see that factcheck.com is rerouting to George Soros' site now? And factcheck.org, which he meant to cite, is rebutting some of his major points, calling the Halliburton stuff truer from Edwards' perspective. (E.g., Halliburton wasn't officially fined while Cheney was there, but it was fined for things that happened while he was.)

And IT DON'T MATTER. This was an ugly debate, but let's not forget the sound asskicking Bush received on the one topic Kerry was seen as weakest on. I predict Kerry trounces Bush two more times, too.

PLUS I'm still calling this election for all those cute little 18-to-24 first time voter babies. They could swing the whole damned thing, I tell you what.

[livius drusus]

You're right, you're right, I know you're right, particularly about the voter babies. The dernier cris with young Hollywood celebs is voter registration activism and I love how they get to sound all pretentious and non-partisan when everyone knows they're all a bunch of pinkos appealing to a highly pinko demographic.

[Beth]

PLUS I'm still calling this election for all those cute little 18-to-24 first time voter babies. They could swing the whole damned thing, I tell you what.

I know. I was reading an analysis of the debate. It was posted on another board and I presume it was from factcheck.org. It was listing the exaggerations and inacuracies in either side. It looks like Cheney, hands down, came out of this with more inaccuracies.

Cheney got our domain name wrong -- calling us "FactCheck.com" -- and wrongly implied that we had rebutted allegations Edwards was making about what Cheney had done as chief executive officer of Halliburton.

In fact, we did post an article pointing out that Cheney hasn't profited personally while in office from Halliburton's Iraq contracts, as falsely implied by a Kerry TV ad. But Edwards was talking about Cheney's responsibility for earlier Halliburton troubles. And in fact, Edwards was mostly right.

Edwards on Halliburton: Partial Credit

We can only give Edwards partial credit for his Halliburton attack, however. He implied that Cheney was in charge of the company when it did business with Libya in violation of US sanctions, but that happened long before Cheney joined the company.

Edwards was also slightly off when he said Halliburton paid millions in fines "while he (Cheney) was CEO." What he meant was that it paid fines for matters that took place while Cheney was in charge. And in fact, the Securities and Exchange Commission announced Aug. 3 that Halliburton will pay $7.5 million to settle a matter that dates back to 1998, when Cheney was CEO.

Halliburton failed to disclose a change in its accounting procedures that resulted in making its earnings look better. Cheney himself was not charged with any wrongdoing, however. The SEC said Cheney "provided sworn testimony and cooperated willingly and fully in the investigation."

On other matters, Edwards said Halliburton "did business with Libya and Iran, two sworn enemies of the United States" and is now "under investigation for having bribed foreign officials" while Cheney was CEO.

Iran: Indeed, Halliburton has said it does about $30 million to $40 million in oilfield service business in Iran annually through a subsidiary, Halliburton Products and Services Ltd. The company says that the subsidiary fully complies with US sanctions laws, but the matter currently is under investigation by a federal grand jury in Houston.
Bribery Investigation: U.S. and French authorities currently are investigating whether a joint venture whose partners included a Halliburton subsidiary paid bribes or kickbacks to win a $12 billion construction project in Nigeria.
Libya: Edwards was wrong to include Libya, however. In 1995, before Cheney joined the company, Halliburton pled guilty to criminal charges that it violated the U.S. ban on exports to Libya and said it would pay $3.81 million in fines. Those violations dated back to 1987 and 1990.

Cheney Overstates Iraq Resolution

Cheney repeatedly said Edwards had voted "for the war" and "to commit the troops," when in fact the Iraq resolution that both Kerry and Edwards supported left the decision to the president and called for intensified diplomacy.

The resolution for which Edwards and Kerry voted said, "The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate."

And Edwards made clear in a statement at the time of his vote that he hoped to avoid war by enlisting broad support from the United Nations and US allies:

Edwards ( Oct. 10, 2002 ): I believe we should act now for two reasons: first, bipartisan congressional action on a strong, unambiguous resolution, like the one before us now, will strengthen America's hand as we seek support from the Security Council and seek to enlist the cooperation of our allies.

If the administration continues its strong, if belated, diplomacy, backed by the bipartisan resolve of the Congress, I believe the United States will succeed in rallying many allies to our side.

Second, strong domestic support and a broad international coalition will make it less likely that force would need to be used.

In fact, not even Bush himself characterized the resolution as a vote "for war" at the time. Speaking at the White House Rose Garden Oct. 2, 2002, Bush said:

Bush (Oct. 2, 2002): None of us here today desire to see military conflict, because we know the awful nature of war. Our country values life, and never seeks war unless it is essential to security and to justice. America's leadership and willingness to use force, confirmed by the Congress, is the best way to ensure compliance and avoid conflict. Saddam must disarm, period. If, however, he chooses to do otherwise, if he persists in his defiance, the use of force may become unavoidable.

Other Dubious Claims.

Cheney used a misleading figure to support the idea that the administration was "deeply concerned" about the toll that AIDS has taken on poor countries, stating that the administration has "proposed and gotten through the Congress authorization for $15 billion to help in the international effort." That's true, but the $15-billion figure was to be spread over five years -- and when it came to asking for money to be actually appropriated and spent Bush sought only $2 billion for the fiscal year that just ended. Congress increased that to $2.4 billion.
Cheney and Edwards both made misleading statements about each other's education records, specifically on the No Child Left Behind law. Cheney claimed "they were for it; now they're against it." But while Kerry has criticized the law as being underfunded and called for some changes he has not called for the law's repeal. Edwards claimed "they said they were going to fund their No Child Left Behind; $27 billion short today." In fact, overall federal funding for education grew 58% in Bush's first three years, though many governors and congressional Democrats say even more is required.
Cheney said Edwards "has got his facts wrong. I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11." But The Washington Post reported Oct. 6 that Cheney often "skated close to the line in ways that may have certainly left that impression on viewers," especially by repeatedly citing the possibility that hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi official, a theory disputed by the 9/11 Commission.
Cheney claimed Kerry had voted 98 times to raise taxes. As we've pointed out before, that's an inflated figure that counts multiple votes on the same tax bills, and also counts votes on budget measures that only set tax targets but don't actually bring about tax increases by themselves.

Anyway, it was a rather enjoyable and informative debate, besides the fact I was being charmed by Edward's grace, I thought that he was rather smooth and impressive. I am not sure if his style worked on me because of my demographic, but I saw him as intelligent, caring, articulate, and formitable. Cheney, I saw as a very intelligent, cold, and unbending person, but I also held him in respect when the gay marriage issue came up. By his silence, he made it clear that he does not support Bush on the ammendment. I also saw the loyalty to his daughter by making it obvious that he does not agree.

Edwards, I thought he was respectful, made a good point and capitalized on this issue. He found a weakness in his opponent and did attack, not his opponant, but his opponent's commander. He did it in a way that I thought that Cheney could not argue or debate without possibly showing support for the ammendment and disloyalty to his daughter.

Anyway, I thought this was a much better debate than the laugh fest of last week, although I am rather hopeful that Bush remains a moron in this one and I can mock him yet again.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

That is so fucking cool, Dave! You wouldn't by any chance be inspired to write up a review of the concert, would you?

Your wish is my command. I just submitted it as an article, here: http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/article.php?a=15

Say, can non-members see FF articles? I think I might republish my review on my blog and link to our articles section.

[livius drusus]

So, so cool. So cool. I actually swooned at the sight of it. Yessir, the articles are publically accessible so link on, MacDuff. Now I'm off to read and comment.

Thank you, Dave.