Examples of recent Jewish terrorism - 'cause it's only Arabs who use violence, right?

[Sauron]

If you read the stories of the extreme measures that had to be taken to evict these right-wing lunatics, it becomes immediately apparent what has happened to Israeli politics in general: the fringe right is in control of the entire political apparatus:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1078027574097

And since some people around here are naive / ill-informed enough to believe that instead of trying peaceful solutions to the problem between Jews and Muslims, Muslims just use violence, I thought it might be useful to show what has happened in the last seven days in Israel. Please note that -- as usual -- I limit myself to Israeli news sources, so no claim of media bias against Israel is possible here.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1124417948722

Anti-pullout activists turn to arson
By JPOST.COM STAFF

Anonymous anti-disengagement activists tried to blow up a gas canister in Rehovot Friday morning.

What could have become a disaster was narrowly averted when firefighters arrived on the scene and put out the fire which would have caused a massive explosion, causing widespread injuries and probably deaths.

The large canister supplies cooking gas to two adjacent apartment buildings, in which some 300 people live, Israel Radio reported.

The perpetrators spray-painted anti-Sharon and anti-disengagement slogans on the premesis.

Meanwhile, in Sa-Nur in northern Samaria, five youths also resorted to attempted arson in their protests against the Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip.

The five targeted a Palestinian-owned gas station in the settlement. Although they didn't manage to ignite it, they caused significant damage.

The gas station had been closed for three days by police order, out of fear that violence would erupt during the evacuation.

The Sa-Nur spokesman reported that the would-be arsonists were not from Sa-Nur. Residents of the settlement forced the youths to leave, telling them that anyone using such tactics was not welcome there.

And:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1078027574097

Jewish terrorist kills 4 Palestinians
By DAVID RUDGE

For the second time in two weeks, a Jewish terrorist struck at innocent civilians – this time in the West Bank settlement of Shiloh, killing four Palestinian workers and wounding two others, one of them seriously.
[...]
According to reports, the Jewish terrorist was Asher Weisgan, from Shvut Rachel, near Shiloh, who was employed as a driver, and who had taken two Palestinian workers in his vehicle to that settlement.

When he reached the scene, he apparently asked the guard there for water and, after allegedly threatening him with a knife, snatched his rifle which he used to kill the two Palestinians he had transported.

He then reportedly ran from the vehicle toward other Palestinian workers and opened fire, killing another one and wounding two more, one of them seriously, who later died of his wounds.

The suspect was reportedly overpowered by a security guard and handed over unharmed to the police and security forces.

He allegedly told investigators that he had acted to try and prevent the evacuation of Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and northern Samaria.
The killings occurred just two weeks after AWOL soldier Eden Natan Zada gunned down four Israeli Arabs, two Christians and two Muslims, on a bus in Shfaram.

Zada was apparently detained by police who were called to the scene, but was lynched by a mob of angry demonstrators.

And:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/614607.html

IDF evacuates main centers of settler resistance in Gush Katif
By Amos Harel and Jonathan Lis

The Israel Defense Forces yesterday completed the evacuation of Neveh Dekalim and Kfar Darom, the two settlements with the highest number of disengagement opponents.

The final stage of withdrawing the two settlements came down to evacuating their synagogues, which took several hours. In Kfar Darom, dozens of youngsters barricaded themselves on the synagogue rooftop, and assaulted soldiers and police officers. Many police officers were injured in the clashes.

At Neveh Dekalim, nearly 1,000 people who had barricaded themselves in the synagogue emerged after lengthy talks with the security forces.
[...]
The worst confrontation yesterday occured on the roof of the Kfar Darom synagogue. After hours of talks, police officers were hoisted by a crane onto the roof, where they were attacked by dozens of youths. About a dozen policemen had to be hospitalized after acid was thrown at them; others sustained bruises and light injuries from sticks. Police arrested dozens of teenagers.

[godfry n. glad]

To respond to your title,

No....Arabs are not the only ones who use terrorism.

I'd say that any nation that has masses of multiple re-entry warhead nuclear weapons mounted on multiple intercontinental ballistic missiles, pointed at pre-selected targets, is a terrorist nation.

oop....that's US!

[Stormlight]

Originally Posted by Sauron

If you read the stories of the extreme measures that had to be taken to evict these right-wing lunatics, it becomes immediately apparent what has happened to Israeli politics in general: the fringe right is in control of the entire political apparatus

Hmmm. While I'm not the biggest fan of Israeli politics, there is something fundamentely wrong with that sentence. Those extreme measures were taken by the Israeli government, no? Those right-wing lunatics were evicted so I fail to see how that proves that "the fringe right is in control"?

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Stormlight

Hmmm. While I'm not the biggest fan of Israeli politics, there is something fundamentely wrong with that sentence. Those extreme measures were taken by the Israeli government, no? Those right-wing lunatics were evicted so I fail to see how that proves that "the fringe right is in control"?

I believe the point was that the government shouldn't have needed to take such drastic measures. The settlers should have withdrawn willingly if their real objective was peace.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I believe the point was that the government shouldn't have needed to take such drastic measures. The settlers should have withdrawn willingly if their real objective was peace.

Also, I'd say that Sauron has injected a bit of hyperbole into the OP. The "fringe right" has only sporadic control, thanks to the multiparty structure of the Knesset. When Labour and Likud closely split the majority of the votes, but do not obtain a clear majority, one or the other is required to form a coalition government with one or more of the minority parties, including those which represent the hasidim (the pious). This gives the hasidim, with their ultra-orthodox right wing politics, way more power than their miniscule numbers amongst the mass of largely non-practicing Israelis might suggest. Thus, this is how, in a largely secular society, the "blue laws" governing sabbath closures has been put into place and enforced. The hasidim tend to hold much more to the ideal of Eretz Yisreal, the "Greater Israel", which includes not only Gaza, the East Bank and Golan Heights, but everything from the Gulf of Aqaba to the western bank of the Euphrates (which should certainly give the Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqis pause).

A side note: The West Bank has never been a "homeland" for the Jews. It was conquered by the Maccabeans and Herodians and thus became part and parcel of the Roman holdings in Palestine in ancient times. Those who lived there were Samaritans...Abrahamic (and Mosaic) believers who worshipped at a temple on Mt. Gerizim, rather than Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem, and were treated as sub-humans by ancient Judeans.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

and were treated as sub-humans by ancient Judeans.

Funny how little things have changed.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Sauron

Funny how little things have changed.

Indeed.

But the whole thing of "homeland" is rather a red herring, anyway. It all depends upon the point in time one picks as determining one's "home". Human populations have often spent much of their time on the move.

It's my understanding that the Zionists of Europe were offered other "protectorate" states in either central Africa (Uganda, I believe) and central Asia. Instead, they started immigrating back to where their mythos placed them at their zenith, Palestine. It was where the last Temple stood, so to many it was a holy land. It was relatively sparsely settled, but it was settled by peoples who could be considered "indigenous", their ancestors having been there for hundreds of years, in most cases. I have no idea how Ottoman land relationships and property laws work, so I cannot speak to land ownership under the Turks, but the Turks had had control of it for quite some time (and had treated the native Jews who'd been there for many a century, tolerably well)...probably extracting what little taxes they could.

When the Ottoman Empire fell apart after the Great War (WWI), one of the products of the vile and despicable Versaille Treaty was the establishment of protectorates (called "mandates") administered by both Britain and France. During the selfsame war, the British government had made an explicit public promise to the Jews of the world, that should they prevail in the war, they would help establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine (considering they'd seized Palestine - amongst other areas - from Egypt, it was easy enough to give away) in the Balfour Declaration. Britain then administered Palestine through 1948, after the second world war and the Holocaust, and tried ever so hard to reneg on their promise. The UN attempted to separate what was there. Three wars ensued in the following forty years, all going very poorly for Israel's Arabic neighbors....many, I would note, who were trying to get rid of the Palestinian refugees from their territories.

The US became involved at Versailles (recommending "self-rule" of all things!)and dabbled intermittently during the inter-war period. It is the American Jewish community and the conservative Protestant bibliolators who have made the United States the "official sponsor" of Israel. In part, that's cold war. In part, that's the closer relationship with a "western" nation, which Israel is considered in the United States. It is a representative democracy, as well, but for the defacto exclusion of the Palestinian residents. <sigh>

The Palestinian people have been abused by both sides.

The issue, I think, goes deeper than even the religious/political aura of the ongoing conflict. I think there are too many people trying to subsist on land that will not support them adequately. Water is a critical issue and control of the Sea of Galilee and the fresh water flowing into it is a major issue. I don't know if anyone here has been to Israel or not, or Jordan? These are not particularly fecund areas. Most of Israel, except for that which hugged the Mediterrenean Sea, looked to be arid, scrub desert. Much like Utah or northern Nevada. The land to the east of Jerusalem is the Judean desert and it is the most sere and barren land I've ever set eyes on.

It's the "promised land". That's because it's been promised to so many different people.

I truly wonder how long that fragile land can hold out against such massive increases in population.

What do I think can be done?

I don't really know. The problem irks me to no end.

I think Jerusalem should be an international city. Not Israeli. Not Palestinian. A city-state unto itself, open to all. (Of course, the Israelis moved their capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to forstall this suggestion on the part of the UN.)

Do I think that's going to happen? No.

I don't think that Gaza/West Bank will work, particularly because it's Israel that is in the way. Again, I wonder why we can't have two Palestines; one east, one west, each independant. Can they survive thus? Doubtful, I'd say. Could Gaza support itself as a nation-state? Doubtful, I'd say. I think Gaza should be returned to Egypt, and the West Bank become Palestine.

I see no way to adequately address or redress the loss of property when it was expropriated as abandoned by enemies of the state. They were invited to stay (and both sides then urged them to run...nutcases everywhere).

I would think that if the other Arab nations of the Middle East, immediately impacted by the displacement, would offer a new living to Palestinians in their own countries. From my experience, the Palestinians are an educated and entrepeneurial people, there would be much gain in accomodating displaced Palestinians, and Moslems, with a refuge in the Arab world, rather than crowded into makeshift housing and inadequate health and sanitation (for, what, 40 years now!) on a narrow strip of land between Israel and the sea.

I also think that Israel should attempt to pay reparations, so that those displaced from their lands can start anew...wherever they so choose, including Israel, as an Israeli citizen, or Palestine, or any other nation that will have them.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I believe the point was that the government shouldn't have needed to take such drastic measures. The settlers should have withdrawn willingly if their real objective was peace.

Yes.

And in addition, the govt of Israel has set this pseudo-withdrawal up as a PR ploy anyhow. This is not a withdrawal from Gaza at all. By conditions set forth in the withdrawal agreement, Israel still controls the roads, the airspace, the borders, and approaches from the sea. They will retain strategic control of a highway that runs through the center of Gaza (Philidelphi Road). Moreover, they retain the right to come back in whenever they see fit to do so.

So this is a sham.

And what happens to these settlers? The reality is that they are being re-settled in govt-purchased housing and financially compensated for their lost property and real estate in Gaza - a far better arrangement than the Israelis ever gave the Arabs, when they took Arab land.

And even given all the above, these fruitcake right-wing Jews are acting like they're being dragged off to be executed.

[mountain_hare]

Isn't it funny that now that the Jews' are being evicted from their homes, they have turned to terrorism? Hmm, I guess the shoe is on the other foot now, eh?

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by mountain_hare

Isn't it funny that now that the Jews' are being evicted from their homes, they have turned to terrorism? Hmm, I guess the shoe is on the other foot now, eh?

I noticed that.

It should make life for the zionist apologetic crowd really uncomfortable, explaining the obvious double standard here.

edited to add: but I'm sure Loren will find a way to excuse/explain/ignore the contradiction. Facts are the enemy of "truth", as they say.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Sauron

but I'm sure Loren will find a way to excuse/explain/ignore the contradiction. Facts are the enemy of "truth", as they say.

Yeah, but why bother about Loren Pechtel? This is the guy who repeatedly insisted that it's physically impossible for a man to coerce sex from a woman by using a gun. Although he continues as an II moderator, LP is too delirious with wilful obtuseness to be your target audience, Sauron.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

Yeah, but why bother about Loren Pechtel? This is the guy who repeatedly insisted that it's physically impossible for a man to coerce sex from a woman by using a gun. Although he continues as an II moderator, LP is too delirious with wilful obtuseness to be your target audience, Sauron.

Oh, I know. But over the years I've mentally started to equate the term "zionist apologist" with Loren Pechtel. So having his name come to mind was tragically unavoidable.

[Crumb]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

This is the guy who repeatedly insisted that it's physically impossible for a man to coerce sex from a woman by using a gun.

Is this supposed to read "for a woman to coerce sex from a man"? If not, that guy is a complete loony.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Crumb

Is this supposed to read "for a woman to coerce sex from a man"? If not, that guy is a complete loony.

Don't let it be said that I passed up a chance to amaze and astonish you!

I include links, lest it be thought I somehow misrepresent this long-serving IIDB moderator.

Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel

Rapists are facing a bigger problem--you can't very well commit a rape while holding a gun.

Originally Posted by Clutch

Holy shit.

Lots of rapes are committed by people holding guns (and knives for that matter). Just how difficult do you think this is?

Originally Posted by Loren

A knife, maybe. A gun, no way.

Originally Posted by Clutch

Loren, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously, ever, when you say things like this? "No way" a gun can be used in rape? This is so astonishingly stupid a thing to say that I must be misunderstanding you. Please, please, clarify exactly what you mean here. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Loren

I'm saying that he can't very well threaten the victim with a gun while he's raping her. He will have to at a minimum point it away from her, probably put it down.

Now imagine this remarkable intellect brought to bear on Mid-East politics. That's what Sauron meant.

[Sauron]

More Jewish terrorism. I guess these terrorists are lucky to be Jewish. If they had been Arabs throwing a firebomb, they would have been shot instead of merely being arrested.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/615275.html

Settlers throw firebomb at IDF bulldozer in West Bank

Settlers threw a firebomb at an Israel Defense Forces vehicle near the Kedumim junction in the West Bank late on Sunday afternoon during a violent demonstration by dozens against the evacuation of settlements.

There were no casualties as the engineering vehicle went up in flames at the junction located just south of Homesh and Sa-Nur, the two West Bank settlements slated for evacuation this week.

The eight settlers who set the bulldozer ablaze fled the scene after the driver threatened them with his personal weapon.

Four police officers and three protesters were wounded in the violent clashes at Kedumim.