60th anniversary of a-bomb attack

[Ari]

For those interested, you can read the minutes of the target Committee here,
Minutes of the second meeting of the Target Committee

A few bits relating to this discussion,

"He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August."

"These targets are:

(1) Kyoto - This target is an urban industrial area with a population of 1,000,000. It is the former capital of Japan and many people and industries are now being moved there as other areas are being destroyed. From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significance of such a weapon as the gadget. (Classified as an AA Target)

(2) Hiroshima - This is an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target. (Classified as an AA Target)

(3) Yokohama - This target is an important urban industrial area which has so far been untouched. Industrial activities include aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries. As the damage to Tokyo has increased additional industries have moved to Yokohama. It has the disadvantage of the most important target areas being separated by a large body of water and of being in the heaviest anti-aircraft concentration in Japan. For us it has the advantage as an alternate target for use in case of bad weather of being rather far removed from the other targets considered. (Classified as an A Target)

(4) Kokura Arsenal - This is one of the largest arsenals in Japan and is surrounded by urban industrial structures. The arsenal is important for light ordnance, anti-aircraft and beach head defense materials. The dimensions of the arsenal are 4100' x 2000'. The dimensions are such that if the bomb were properly placed full advantage could be taken of the higher pressures immediately underneath the bomb for destroying the more solid structures and at the same time considerable blast damage could be done to more feeble structures further away. (Classified as an A Target)

(5) Niigata - This is a port of embarkation on the N.W. coast of Honshu. Its importance is increasing as other ports are damaged. Machine tool industries are located there and it is a potential center for industrial despersion. It has oil refineries and storage. (Classified as a B Target)"

As you can see with this list of possible targets, there were better choices for military damage but they wanted a large amount of damage to the cities and thus civilian casualties.


Racial slurs:
The difference is, US is not a racial slur, Jap and Nip are.

[albert cipriani]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I asked a question. Your answer disappointed me. C'est tout.

You asserted that I was a bigot under the guise of a question. It’s not that I had to refute your disgusting insinuation that was disgusting, but that it was you who asked it that is disappointing. – Albert

[Ari]

Considering the way you treat people on the forum, I'm not convinced you aren't.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Adora

Considering "Americans" can refer to any citizen of the countries that come under the umbrella of "The Americas", "US" is probably more correct.

Yeah, I know.

The problem is, using US seems all to often to lead to using THEM.

I refer you to Randy Newman's "Political Science."

[Bella]

What is a "nip" - ?

[Adora]

A racial slur short for "Nippon".

[Bella]

Originally Posted by Adora

A racial slur short for "Nippon".

Which means what? Sorry - ignorant Asian Midwesterner here.

[albert cipriani]

Originally Posted by Ari

Racial slurs: The difference is, US is not a racial slur, Jap and Nip are.

Flat-footed assertions. That’s all I can expect from you guys.

Nip is short for Nippon and Jap is short of Japanese just like GI is short for Government Issue. Ergo, we don’t mean any insult in calling someone a GI but we do when calling them a Nip or a Jap!? Right? That you guys go along with these games is your problem, not mine.

The only question is, who makes up the “you’re-a-bigot rules of engagement” and why do you adhere to them? At the very least, the question is, how dare you conscript into your silly game people who don’t play your silly game? – Disgusted, Albert Biased Cipriani the Bigoted Traditional Catholic Who Proves His Irrational Hated of the Japanese by Shortening their Name to Japs and Thereby Countermanding the Ever-Changing Rules of Your Eeny-Meany-Miny-Moe, Catch a Bigot by the Gonads Game that I’m Not Playing

[Ari]

And yet, Jap and Nip are still considered racial slurs and GI is not (I swear you don't read posts or something). Maybe if you are not a bigot you can choose different terms?

Nippon is the japanese name for Japan.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Bree

Which means what? Sorry - ignorant Asian Midwesterner here.

It means "Japanese". Just as "Nihon" means "Japan". But it's not consistant, even in the Japanese language. The Japanese do not refer to themselves as "Nips", nor to they use "Japs". ("Nihonjin" is the correct phrase, in their language.) Those are hate words used in the United States since before the Second World War. They were usually used in reference to native US citizens who happened to have Japanese ancestry, as well as actual natives of Japan. They were terms of derision and impuned inferiority.

They still are.

[SillyGoose]

We did not need to drop the bombs. Japan had already lost the war. We did it because we wanted to see what happened. I don't think the US officials anticipated the devastation it would cause, including the prolonged radiation sickness, but we did it for the worst of reasons. In a strange way, the cold war probably remained cold because the world could see how terrible a nuclear war would be, but bombing the Japanese was an evil war crime.

[albert cipriani]

Originally Posted by Ari

And yet, Jap and Nip are still considered racial slurs and GI is not

"Considered"? By who?

Consideration is synonymous with thought. And it takes no thought to arbitrarily ban one abbreviation after another under the pretense of being a non-bigot and having pseudo-grounds for the moral high-ground from which to hurtle the charge of bigot upon anyone and everyone who doesn't comply with your arbitrary word shenanigans.

That you PC aficionados play such games does not surprise me. That Livius does and does not even deign to defend the indefensible practice is just sickening. -- Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

[Adora]

"Considered"? By who?

Everyone who isn't you.

Next.

[Dingfod]

Nippon means Japan.

[viscousmemories]

Albert, I know you're not a clueless idiot no matter how hard you try to hide it. You undoubtedly know that 'jap' is considered a racially offensive term and yet you insist on using it anyway. But instead of assuming that you were being racist, livius -- generous and charitable person that she is -- decided to ask you if you meant it as a racial slur. Your lamentations about "political correctness" are empty. If you want to keep walking and talking like a racist, you should expect to be judged as one. Most people won't do you the favor of asking you if you really mean it.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Adora

Considering "Americans" can refer to any citizen of the countries that come under the umbrella of "The Americas", "US" is probably more correct.

considering there is no continent called the americas,

North american and south american refer to inhabitants of the respective continents and american refers to people from the usa.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Ari

For those interested, you can read the minutes of the target Committee here,
Minutes of the second meeting of the Target Committee

A few bits relating to this discussion,

"He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August."

"These targets are:

(1) Kyoto - This target is an urban industrial area with a population of 1,000,000. It is the former capital of Japan and many people and industries are now being moved there as other areas are being destroyed. From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significance of such a weapon as the gadget. (Classified as an AA Target)

(2) Hiroshima - This is an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target. (Classified as an AA Target)

(3) Yokohama - This target is an important urban industrial area which has so far been untouched. Industrial activities include aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries. As the damage to Tokyo has increased additional industries have moved to Yokohama. It has the disadvantage of the most important target areas being separated by a large body of water and of being in the heaviest anti-aircraft concentration in Japan. For us it has the advantage as an alternate target for use in case of bad weather of being rather far removed from the other targets considered. (Classified as an A Target)

(4) Kokura Arsenal - This is one of the largest arsenals in Japan and is surrounded by urban industrial structures. The arsenal is important for light ordnance, anti-aircraft and beach head defense materials. The dimensions of the arsenal are 4100' x 2000'. The dimensions are such that if the bomb were properly placed full advantage could be taken of the higher pressures immediately underneath the bomb for destroying the more solid structures and at the same time considerable blast damage could be done to more feeble structures further away. (Classified as an A Target)

(5) Niigata - This is a port of embarkation on the N.W. coast of Honshu. Its importance is increasing as other ports are damaged. Machine tool industries are located there and it is a potential center for industrial despersion. It has oil refineries and storage. (Classified as a B Target)"

As you can see with this list of possible targets, there were better choices for military damage but they wanted a large amount of damage to the cities and thus civilian casualties.


Racial slurs:
The difference is, US is not a racial slur, Jap and Nip are.

I see that there was a list of targets I dont see where they selected targets that were of a civilian nature however. but even if they did, us lives were saved and probably japanese lives as well.

and most certainly chinese and pacific islander lives were saved because the japanese surrendered much more quickly then they would have otherwise.

[albert cipriani]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

“Those are hate words (Japs) used in the United States since before the Second World War.”

Right! It’s cuz we’re raciest that on VJ day newspapers all across our sick society ran 142 point headlines which read: “Japs Quit”

It’s cuz those newspaper editors knew that all those American widows and grieving mothers hated the Japanese so much that they wouldn’t buy newspapers if those newspapers called the Japanese anything other than their proper raciest epithet -- Japs. (Which is also why, till this very day, Americans still won’t buy Jap cars or cameras, or stereos… that’s how deep our bigotry continues to run.)

It had nothing to do with the fact the headline “Japanese Surrender” would have forced them to use less enthusiastic smaller leading. – Incredulous, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

[Ari]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

I see that there was a list of targets I dont see where they selected targets that were of a civilian nature however. but even if they did, us lives were saved and probably japanese lives as well.

and most certainly chinese and pacific islander lives were saved because the japanese surrendered much more quickly then they would have otherwise.

Although not directly stated as civilian targets, one of the main factors for choosing a target was how much of the city could be destroyed, which could be considered civilian targets (in a similar way they don't refer to it as a bomb but a gadget).

It is possible it saved lives, but the big question is, did it save more civilian lives than it killed? Does saving soldiers warrant the killing of civilian Men, Women and Children?
Although it did hasten the surrender of the Japanese, from the historical discussions I have heard, they were broken at that point anyway and the fighting wouldn't have continued for too much longer.

[Morroskye]

Originally Posted by albert cipriani

Right! It’s cuz we’re raciest that on VJ day newspapers all across our sick society ran 142 point headlines which read: “Japs Quit”

It’s cuz those newspaper editors knew that all those American widows and grieving mothers hated the Japanese so much that they wouldn’t buy newspapers if those newspapers called the Japanese anything other than their proper raciest epithet -- Japs. (Which is also why, till this very day, Americans still won’t buy Jap cars or cameras, or stereos… that’s how deep our bigotry continues to run.)

It had nothing to do with the fact the headline “Japanese Surrender” would have forced them to use less enthusiastic smaller leading. – Incredulous, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

Wow! FF's playful tolerance of this cocksucker is breathtaking. Do you tolerate posters regularly using neo-Nazi terms for other races?? The Fawning over this filthy Catholic is nauseating. But I am so bored here at work I couldn't resist peeking under the rock at you all. Deciphering eachother's sentences and arguments day after day after day must mean there are alot of OTHER bored people around besides me! Perhaps Al should mail some of you a sock to suck on so the rest of the world isn't exposed to his Klanner/Catholic bullshit.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Morroskye

But I am so bored here at work I couldn't resist peeking under the rock at you all.

So you make a big drama queen exit but come back to troll? I guess that's yet another thing you have in common with Albert.

[Ari]

I "tolerate" Al for no other reason than to not sink to his level such as childish name calling and Ad homs.
Maybe you can do the same.

[livius drusus]

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Ari

Although not directly stated as civilian targets, one of the main factors for choosing a target was how much of the city could be destroyed, which could be considered civilian targets (in a similar way they don't refer to it as a bomb but a gadget).

It is possible it saved lives, but the big question is, did it save more civilian lives than it killed? Does saving soldiers warrant the killing of civilian Men, Women and Children?
Although it did hasten the surrender of the Japanese, from the historical discussions I have heard, they were broken at that point anyway and the fighting wouldn't have continued for too much longer.

I find the idea that the japanese were about to surrender to be ludicrous, they didnt even surrender right away after the first bomb.

also, iirc each week something like 100k chinese and pacific islanders were killed because of the japanese occupation. so if the bomb ended the war only by a couple of months quicker then it saved a fuckload of chinese and pacific islanders.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

considering there is no continent called the americas,

I never said there was. But I've heard people refer to the two continents and their little islands as "The Americas" a lot before. Especially European tourists.