Wolcott on the Coulter Pie Incident

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

Something else to consider is the difference between tv and real life. We see it on tv and its funny as hell, but if you were actually there and saw two men running for her, what would you think?

If the target was the President, you'd think: "Why did the Secret Service just shoot those two kids?"

[Socratoad]

I guess that I do not see pieing someone like Coulter as a prevention of her rights to 'free speech as I see it as an incident that tends to diminish the hateful impact of her words by the introduction of a little levity into the scene.

Hence my earlier comment about Hitler. If perhaps some people had thrown a few pies then a few more Germans would not have taken his speeches with so much gravity and seriousness.

In short: I shall defend to my death the right to throw pies

Ideals without context can become very dangerous ......methinks

[Dingfod]

The day that Ann Coulter gets Secret Service protection is the day I'm leaving this country. [Alec Baldwin mode off]

[Socratoad]

Originally Posted by warrenly

The day that Ann Coulter gets Secret Service protection is the day I'm leaving this country. [Alec Baldwin mode off]

Unless of course the pricks are wearing brown shirts so that we might more easily recognize them

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

I guess that I do not see pieing someone like Coulter as a prevention of her rights to 'free speech as I see it as an incident that tends to diminish the hateful impact of her words by the introduction of a little levity into the scene.

The problem is when you defend the right of people to assault Ann Coulter during her speeches, you in turn support the right of right-wing fanatics to assault the people you'd prefer to hear speaking. If people start throwing pies at speakers willy-nilly, how long will it take before they're throwing other things. And how long after that before public speeches just stop happening?

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

The problem is when you defend the right of people to assault Ann Coulter during her speeches, you in turn support the right of right-wing fanatics to assault the people you'd prefer to hear speaking. If people start throwing pies at speakers willy-nilly, how long will it take before they're throwing other things. And how long after that before public speeches just stop happening?

actually a great example for this is throwing blood at people entering an abortion clinic. no real harm just like the pies, but incredibly fucked up nontheless.

[Socratoad]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

actually a great example for this is throwing blood at people entering an abortion clinic. no real harm just like the pies, but incredibly fucked up nontheless.

Well guys it certainly is not my wish to argue just for arguments sake, so I hope that you will forgive me if I do not equate the time honoured concept of pie-throwing with throwing blood.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

actually a great example for this is throwing blood at people entering an abortion clinic. no real harm just like the pies, but incredibly fucked up nontheless.

That is fucked up. I didn't realize people do that.

[Shake]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

That is fucked up. I didn't realize people do that.

I didn't either, but oddly, I'm not all that surprised.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

Well guys it certainly is not my wish to argue just for arguments sake, so I hope that you will forgive me if I do not equate the time honoured concept of pie-throwing with throwing blood.

Is there really a time-honored concept in this country of throwing pies in the face of public speakers? I know it's common in slapstick comedies, but at political functions? I don't mind at all if you reject the analogy of blood throwing, but I'd still be interested in your response to my point that endorsing such activity when the target is Ann Coulter means endorsing it when the target is someone else. How would you feel if John Kerry got a pie thrown in his face every time he tried to speak in public during this campaign and Bush didn't? Would you not feel that democracy was being undermined?

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Shake

I didn't either, but oddly, I'm not all that surprised.

iirc, it has happened, I dont think it is a regular occurrence. or anything.

Police arrested 16 people from the Christian Defense Coalition for demonstrating without a permit and another anti-abortion protester for throwing ink-filled plastic eggs at rally signs.

from http://www.ppslr.org/Media/Articles/04April_26.htm

I couldnt find anything about abortion protesters throwing blood, but anti fur people have and evidentally so have aids activists. I was sure I had heard a news bit about it a few years ago, but I couldnt find anything.

still ink would be very comparable to the pie in the face.

[Socratoad]

Originally Posted by ViscousMemories

Is there really a time-honoured concept in this country of throwing pies in the face of public speakers? I know it's common in slapstick comedies, but at political functions? I don't mind at all if you reject the analogy of blood throwing, but I'd still be interested in your response to my point that endorsing such activity when the target is Ann Coulter means endorsing it when the target is someone else. How would you feel if John Kerry got a pie thrown in his face every time he tried to speak in public during this campaign and Bush didn't? Would you not feel that democracy was being undermined?

OK friend, point well made, and so I accept your reasoning.

Please forgive me (a Third Reich amateur historian) if my judgement becomes more than just a little clouded ....... For when I picture secret service persons protecting the speeches of Coulter ...... then a picture of the Brownshirts protecting the speeches of Adolf Hitler in his early days spring instantly to mind.

Some of the hate Coulter spews is not unlike that spewed by Hitler, and yet among the twenty-some odd million people slaughtered were many of those who protected his right to speak ....... this is not intended to be a reasoned argument, but rather an attempt to explain just what colours my judgement
in this case and ever so many others.

My value system has been firmly formed by the events of WW11 and my proximity to that time much more than almost all of you on the internet, and so over a period of time I have found that my perceptions and those I meet on the net, although not profound, are subtly different.

Regretly this has ofttimes led to misunderstandings.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

OK friend, point well made, and so I accept your reasoning.

Please forgive me (a Third Reich amateur historian) if my judgement becomes more than just a little clouded ....... For when I picture secret service persons protecting the speeches of Coulter ...... then a picture of the Brownshirts protecting the speeches of Adolf Hitler in his early days spring instantly to mind.

Some of the hate Coulter spews is not unlike that spewed by Hitler, and yet among the twenty-some odd million people slaughtered were many of those who protected his right to speak ....... this is not intended to be a reasoned argument, but rather an attempt to explain just what colours my judgement
in this case and ever so many others.

My value system has been firmly formed by the events of WW11 and the proximity to that time much more than almost all of you on the internet, and so over a period of time I have found that my perceptions and those I meet on the net, although not profound, are subtly different

I have to agree that Coulter is pretty much as bad as a neo-nazi. For me, I think all of the crap she spews is and should be constitutionally protected speech. I am very hesitant to okay censoring someone because, honestly, I am in a not so popular minority in america.

[Socratoad]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

I have to agree that Coulter is pretty much as bad as a neo-nazi. For me, I think all of the crap she spews is and should be constitutionally protected speech. I am very hesitant to okay censoring someone because, honestly, I am in a not so popular minority in America.

Point well taken and agreed with. This a conundrum I know. Still on this subject I cannot even pretend to be objective ........ can't help but wish some unorthodox person had denied Hitler his rights.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

OK friend, point well made, and so I accept your reasoning.

Thanks.

Please forgive me (a Third Reich amateur historian) if my judgement becomes more than just a little clouded ....... For when I picture secret service persons protecting the speeches of Coulter ...... then a picture of the Brownshirts protecting the speeches of Adolf Hitler in his early days spring instantly to mind.

Some of the hate Coulter spews is not unlike that spewed by Hitler, and yet among the twenty-some odd million people slaughtered were many of those who protected his right to speak ....... this is not intended to be a reasoned argument, but rather an attempt to explain just what colours my judgement
in this case and ever so many others.

I actually have a lot of respect for that viewpoint and I am fascinated by the idea that free speech may be overrated (to put it very simplistically). In fact livius and I discussed free speech principles at length amongst ourselves and in various other fora as we were putting together the guidelines for this site. We are still thirsting for a good long hashing out of how to handle propaganda here, for example.

In other words because of our committment to free speech, we have no rule prohibiting the posting of hate propaganda here. We made that choice because we both subscribe to the belief oft touted by the ACLU that more speech is always better than no speech. Are we wrong? I won't speak for livius but I know I wonder about it a lot. I am not particularly interested in providing a medium for propagandists to spread their venom. At the same time, I honestly believe that hateful bias is neutralized by exposure to the light of public scrutiny, and nurtured by censorship.

My value system has been firmly formed by the events of WW11 and my proximity to that time much more than almost all of you on the internet, and so over a period of time I have found that my perceptions and those I meet on the net, although not profound, are subtly different.

Regretly this has ofttimes led to misunderstandings.

And given the importance of that historical period I'm overjoyed to have someone with your perspective on it and general openmindedness as a member here. I hope you don't ever misconstrue any disagreement I might have with your stated opinions as a character judgement. That isn't my intent.

[Socratoad]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Thanks.

I actually have a lot of respect for that viewpoint and I am fascinated by the idea that free speech may be overrated (to put it very simplistically). In fact livius and I discussed free speech principles at length amongst ourselves and in various other fora as we were putting together the guidelines for this site. We are still thirsting for a good long hashing out of how to handle propaganda here, for example.

In other words because of our committment to free speech, we have no rule prohibiting the posting of hate propaganda here. We made that choice because we both subscribe to the belief oft touted by the ACLU that more speech is always better than no speech. Are we wrong? I won't speak for livius but I know I wonder about it a lot. I am not particularly interested in providing a medium for propagandists to spread their venom. At the same time, I honestly believe that hateful bias is neutralized by exposure to the light of public scrutiny, and nurtured by censorship.

And given the importance of that historical period I'm overjoyed to have someone with your perspective on it and general open mindedness as a member here. I hope you don't ever misconstrue any disagreement I might have with your stated opinions as a character judgement. That isn't my intent.

Thank you for your most thoughtful post. It really helps when we all are able to feel comfortable enough to put all our cards face-up on the table, because in the long run it sure helps to diminish misunderstandings, and from time to time hurt feelings.

And so vm and Liv, we seem to have a stand-off here ..... for want of a better term I shall call it a mutual admiration society

PS: While I'm at it, another byproduct of my age is ofttimes missing a answered post do to my general slowness and so without intent I miss posts that should in all fairness and recognition have been answered. So if anyone goes to the trouble of answering a post by me only to have it seemingly ignored then please be assured it was not by intent.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

Thank you for your most thoughtful post. It really helps when we all are able to feel comfortable enough to put all our cards face-up on the table, because in the long run it sure helps to diminish misunderstandings, and from time to time hurt feelings.

And so vm and Liv, we seem to have a stand-off here ..... for want of a better term I shall call it a mutual admiration society

PS: While I'm at it, another byproduct of my age is ofttimes missing a answered post do to my general slowness and so without intent I miss posts that should in all fairness and recognition have been answered. So if anyone goes to the trouble of answering a post by me only to have it seemingly ignored then please be assured it was not by intent.

I have some of questions, did you serve in ww2, as what and where?

I agree that being open is the easiest thing in the long run, because it results in less misunderstandings.

I think that when someone proposes evil, we must oppose it, but hat we should not escalate violence unless it is truly necessary. Should hitler have been opposed with force, in hindsight yes. Certainly, his laws making jews second class citizens should have been opposed. I think we should lambast and make fun of evil dipshits like coulter, but until she runs for office on a platform of lets kill the arabs, I dont think that we should do much more than heckle and of course never buy anything by her.

[Socratoad]

I was a little too young for WW11. I tried to enlist, but my grade three teacher told me to sit down and shut up

But to be serious for a moment: I was a canadian fighter pilot attached to NATO and mainly served in the south of Germany in the 1950s. Patrolling the border between the two Germanys. I actually got to exchange waves with the Russian MIG pilots patrolling the other side of the border many times. Although I also was a member of a aerobatic team that won the cup three years running against all other NATO teams, all the time I was in the service I never suffered so much as a scratch.

After becoming a civilian and starting my own businesses I became a volunteer assisting or working directly for several different international aid agencies, mainly in South East Asia and Africa, with a short stint in South America. Lots of unbelievable things happened along the way until on the border of the province of Katanga (DRC) then simply known as the Congo during those years, I managed to slow down a fragmentation grenade with my back .... thus bringing that chapter of my life to an abrupt halt. I still have a tiny piece of that grenade embedded in my spine as a somewhat painful souvenir.

End of Toad's war stories

I'm gonna have to get Liv to get a toad smiley wearing a little tin helmet

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

I was a little too young for WW11. I tried to enlist, but my grade three teacher told me to sit down and shut up

But to be serious for a moment: I was a canadian fighter pilot attached to NATO and mainly served in the south of Germany in the 1950s. Patrolling the border between the two Germanys. I actually got to exchange waves with the Russian MIG pilots patrolling the other side of the border many times. Although I also was a member of a aerobatic team that won the cup three years running against all other NATO teams, all the time I was in the service I never suffered so much as a scratch.

After becoming a civilian and starting my own businesses I became a volunteer assisting or working directly for several different international aid agencies, mainly in South East Asia and Africa, with a short stint in South America. Lots of unbelievable things happened along the way until on the border of the province of Katanga (DRC) then simply known as the Congo during those years, I managed to slow down a fragmentation grenade with my back .... thus bringing that chapter of my life to an abrupt halt. I still have a tiny piece of that grenade embedded in my spine as a somewhat painful souvenir.

End of Toad's war stories

I'm gonna have to get Liv to get a toad smiley wearing a little tin helmet

Just when I thought my admiration of you couldn't possibly become any deeper...

I'm currently in the Air Force (getting out, thank Her Holiness) and I used to work on the F-117A Stealth Fighter.

I was there when we started OIF. I was there when our jets came back trying to assassinate Saddam. You gotta love being a mercenary, indirectly.

Your wisdom shows in your discourse, and I greatly admire you for what you have been through.

From a young comrades-in-arms to another:

[Salute]

Chris

[Socratoad]

Why thank you Chris, ya got this old once-upon-a-time warrior blushing.

I salute you too comrade, and hope that your return to civvy street is safe, pleasant and fruitful