Gay marriage legalized in Canada

Sweetie · #1 08-09-2005, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

Huh. I don't remember that.

Let's see what actual facts might contribute here. A search of the LexisNexis news media database, restricted to major newspapers and broadcasters from November 2003 to February 2004 (well in advance of the election) produced just over one hundred hits. A few at random:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Martin, Feb 26 2004, quoted nationwide in Canadian Press story

When the courts decided that it was a human rights issue and that you cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, I said all right. As far as I'm concerned, that's decided the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by News report, Ottawa Citizen Feb 5 2004

Questioners in Ottawa's conference centre and across the country asked Martin questions ranging from what time he goes to bed -- from a Grade 5 student -- to whether he supports same-sex marriage. That support was built on the equality provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, he said.

"I believe we have to go with the Charter. To not go with the Charter you'd bring a great deal of inequity into the Canadian social contract."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler, Jan 29 2004, CTV national news interview

Our position on this is unequivocal. We are reasserting the same position that the previous government took in support of same-sex marriage

Quote:

he just kept backpeddling and backpeddling and being obscure saying things like, "the people's concerns will be heard and we'll look at both sides and be fair," and other such bullshit.

Clearly this is false.

It may or may not be, but coming deadline man, he was ambiguous. I fricken heard him, on radio, on tv at that time instead of saying yes or no, he was being obscure. The News reports were obscure too, the ones I encountered. Going to polls, as far as I knew and as far as things had been reported where I am, the question was still open. Even the Newscasters were saying that. Perhaps at some point, he lead us to believe as opposed to his other expressions, that there was still leeway on the subject within his party.

I also remembered a Newcast saying that late 90's, the Liberal party had said that they would not vote in favor of gay marriage so those who voted for them then were also voting in favor of that. Grrrr, either I am getting sloppy reporting, you are or the Liberal party was indeed being ambiguous.

Quote:

While some polls show it closer than others, virtually every serious poll on the matter over the past ten years has a majority of Canadians supporting the right to same-sex marriage. (Including one conducted by Focus on the Family, which they declined to report in their mail-outs to members.)

So here too the facts appear inconsistent with your claim.

That doesn't matter because that's not what I meant. Marriage affects 100% of the population, 97% of the population being heterosexual. Whether the heterosexual population agrees with the decision or not does not mean that 3% hasn't dictated to the population what marriage is or isn't.

Clutch Munny · #2 08-09-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

Huh. I don't remember that.

Let's see what actual facts might contribute here. A search of the LexisNexis news media database, restricted to major newspapers and broadcasters from November 2003 to February 2004 (well in advance of the election) produced just over one hundred hits. A few at random:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Martin, Feb 26 2004, quoted nationwide in Canadian Press story

When the courts decided that it was a human rights issue and that you cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, I said all right. As far as I'm concerned, that's decided the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by News report, Ottawa Citizen Feb 5 2004

Questioners in Ottawa's conference centre and across the country asked Martin questions ranging from what time he goes to bed -- from a Grade 5 student -- to whether he supports same-sex marriage. That support was built on the equality provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, he said.

"I believe we have to go with the Charter. To not go with the Charter you'd bring a great deal of inequity into the Canadian social contract."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler, Jan 29 2004, CTV national news interview

Our position on this is unequivocal. We are reasserting the same position that the previous government took in support of same-sex marriage

Quote:

he just kept backpeddling and backpeddling and being obscure saying things like, "the people's concerns will be heard and we'll look at both sides and be fair," and other such bullshit.

Clearly this is false.

It may or may not be...

No. It is false. Whatever you might believe you heard Martin say, or heard someone else say that he said, the record clearly shows Martin and his officials stating that the Liberal Party supported same-sex marriage in the run-up to the election. Nobody could have followed the news and been unclear on the matter.

Quote:

...but coming deadline man, he was ambiguous. I fricken heard him, on radio, on tv at that time instead of saying yes or no, he was being obscure. The News reports were obscure too, the ones I encountered.

Memory is a tricky thing. I've provided the evidence from the record that Martin was not hiding his views.

Quote:

Going to polls, as far as I knew and as far as things had been reported where I am, the question was still open.

Okay.

Quote:

Even the Newscasters were saying that. Perhaps at some point, he lead us to believe as opposed to his other expressions, that there was still leeway on the subject within his party.

Which newscaster, and when?

Quote:

I also remembered a Newcast saying that late 90's, the Liberal party had said that they would not vote in favor of gay marriage so those who voted for them then were also voting in favor of that. Grrrr, either I am getting sloppy reporting, you are or the Liberal party was indeed being ambiguous.

Wait, so you seem to recall hearing a reporter from 8 or so years ago saying that (at some time) the Liberals had said that...

I think the most likely options are not among the three you list. Certainly for you to include the prospect that I'm "getting sloppy reporting" when I've given you the recent specific sources for Martin's own words and you've given "I once heard a guy say..." is remarkable. Often people realize they're going to heroic lengths to defend an unwarranted belief, when they catch themselves doing things like that.

Quote:

While some polls show it closer than others, virtually every serious poll on the matter over the past ten years has a majority of Canadians supporting the right to same-sex marriage. (Including one conducted by Focus on the Family, which they declined to report in their mail-outs to members.)

So here too the facts appear inconsistent with your claim.

That doesn't matter because that's not what I meant. Marriage affects 100% of the population, 97% of the population being heterosexual. Whether the heterosexual population agrees with the decision or not does not mean that 3% hasn't dictated to the population what marriage is or isn't.

It means that if you speak any dialect of English. Or have those hungry people in Africa dictated to us, since we're sending them food?

Sheesh.

So far every substantial claim of your original post is conclusively falsified or just plain unwarranted. I recommend revising your beliefs about the election and the national politics of gay marriage rights, to make them consonant with what's actually happened.