should teachers carry guns?

[Ari]

I think the big question is, would the principal get to carry the grenade launcher?

[foo fighter]

and these are just some of the problems that the school will face. what about when the teacher goes home to a abusive situation? or become a victim of a crime? where as not having a gun he/she would have thought differently. i was always told that a gun gives you confidence that you wouldn't normally have.

[JaredM]

Listen, I have nothing against firearms per se, and I am a firm believer in the right to bear arms. But there need to be limits on that. This is not the Wild West we're talking about here, it is public education (though the differences are getting narrower, sadly. Arming teachers and janitors, etc. isn't going to make the schools safe automatically; if anything, it could create further unforeseen problems. I simply do not feel it is a practical solution.

Metal detectors and security personnel is more workable and um, less ridiculous.

[Legs]

I cannot see how adding weapons will help. Anyone remember that Agent teaching gun safety to kids last year who shot himself in front of the class by accident?

[The Jesus Lawyer]

not that you will see this, but i remember that...it was fucking hilarious!

[Tanda]

Linkage

[Legs]

Tanda! thanks for the video link, it would not have been as amusing if he had accidently shot a student.

[viscousmemories]

Whoa, blast from the past. Hi Tanda.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

ha!

thanks tanda

Originally Posted by Legs

it would not have been as amusing if he had accidently shot a student.

no, but it might have been prudent if that student was carrying a gun..

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Originally Posted by angrybellsprout

I'm all for a little ass whoopin power for teachers in the way of blunt weapons, but guns as something more than traq darts, no.

I take it you're ignorant to the fact that tranquilizer darts that work instantly - or even close to it - exist only in fiction. Real darts take minutes to have a useful effect.

Equipping teachers with tasers wouldn't be a bad idea. Tasers rarely kill, and in the cases where they do it's mostly because the person shot by them is on hard drugs.

[California Tanker]

Originally Posted by Ari

Sounds stupid and reactionary.

No less stupid and reactionary than the usual "Let's ban all guns" every time this sort of thing occurs.

and these are just some of the problems that the school will face. what about when the teacher goes home to a abusive situation? or become a victim of a crime? where as not having a gun he/she would have thought differently. i was always told that a gun gives you confidence that you wouldn't normally have

Why should his/her being a teacher have any effect on this? In every state, a teacher, just like any other private citizen, can have access to a firearm. In 48 of them (Curiously, Wisconsin isn't one of them, the other isn't Illinois), they may be authorised to carry one down the street, into a shopping mall, into church, wherever, except schools (Possible exception of Utah, which authorises them in university at least), federal property (and how many postal shootings were stopped by it being illegal to have a gun in a post office?) and sometimes bars. In 39 of them, if he/she passes a simple background/proficiency check, the state is legally obliged to issue a permit to carry. (and in Vermont you don't need a permit at all). There are over a half-million permits on issue in Pennsylvania, for example. One out of every 25 people in North Carolina can carry a firearm every day (Actually, that's before subtracting law enforcement, and people under 18 who don't need/can't get permits so the ratio is even better). [Edited incorrect numberical analysis for Oregon]

So as all these thousands, if not tens of thousands of teachers who routinely carry a firearm can be trusted not to go ape outside the classroom, what possible grounds can there be for not trusting them -inside- the classroom? Heck, you're already entrusting them with your kid's future and safety in everything else, from the playground through school trips. The only result of the current status of making schools total gun-free-zones is that the only people who will be armed are going to do something which being charged with posession of a firearm near a school is the least of their worries.

Metal detectors and security personnel is more workable and um, less ridiculous.

You're kidding, right? You want to have six-foot barbed wire barriers around the schools, roving patrols, and Airport-style checkpoints to get in and out? Not least the impression it gives is horrible, it's also pretty bloody expensive, and not particularly effective at stopping the average rampager: Just shoot the guard before you get to the metal detector. Best of all, as for 'workability', all you're doing is giving the teacher the exact same ability to do in the classroom as he currently has outside the classroom. Heck, he or she already has a firearm which he/she knows and is proficient with. Total cost to the School Board of Governors? $0.

NTM

[erimir]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

not that you will see this, but i remember that...it was fucking hilarious!

Eh... it's much funnier to just hear about than to see.

I didn't think that the video was all that amusing. I was pretty impressed by how he handled it. If it had been me, I'd've screamed a number of obscenities for at least a minute.

[quiet bear]

I doubt this will ever come to fruition. And even if it does, there is no way it can be done in a secretive manner. I don't know much about much, but I'm fairly certain that if teachers carrying firearms came to pass, there would have to be full disclosure. There's no way, if I had children, that they would get on a bus and go to a school where 'some teachers, but no one knows which ones' are carrying a deadly weapon.

Even if this this wildy irresponsible proposal became reality, it's my opinion that there would be a huge spike in home schooling.

Granted, one school shooting is one too many, but if you take into account the hundreds of thousands of schools there are, the percentage of school shootings is miniscule.

The alarm system is a really good idea, though. Even that has its flaws, though. Same as kids pull fire alarms, they'll set those things off as well.

Oh, and that video is the same one shown in the Delaware State Police classes I took last winter.

[California Tanker]

Originally Posted by quiet bear

There's no way, if I had children, that they would get on a bus and go to a school where 'some teachers, but no one knows which ones' are carrying a deadly weapon.

Presumably the police would know. They'd have issued the permit.

Would you let kids take the public bus, period? Maybe to go to the shopping mall, or cinema? Some passengers, but nobody outside the police knows which ones, are carrying deadly weapons. If you're going to live in the US in perpertual fear of people who are legally carrying firearms, you're going to have to live in WI, IL, D.C., maybe NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles. If you live in pretty much any other location, you're going to have to barricade yourself and your family in the house, because there are lots of them out there. If you're going to live in fear of people who are illegally carrying firearms, it doesn't matter where you live, you're screwed.

The alarm system still has a few flaws in it. I think the nationwide average response time to a call is on the order of four minutes before the first cop shows up. You can do a lot of damage in four minutes, if you're so inclined.

NTM

[quiet bear]

Well, of course, there are risks every time you walk out your front door. You never know who's doing what. If you let that dictate your life, you will live in perpetual fear. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was talking about a specific situation, not gong to the extreme examples given.

But, cutting through the endless 'what if' situations, my point is, I wouldn't knowingly send a child into a building where I knew for sure people were carrying loaded guns.

[Artemis Entreri]

Funny how some could consider arming teachers but don't dare let them paddle students. It worked really well when i was a kid. Kids were paddled in my school up till Highschool.

I was taught by father and grandfather to never point a gun at anything (or anyone) you didn't want to shoot. That went for loaded and unloaded guns.
I would take that further and say that I don't think you should have a loaded gun if you aren't going to use it. I know the teachers would only use it to defend the students but just imagine the senario of an armed teacher killing a kid who had a fake or unloaded gun.

[California Tanker]

just imagine the senario of an armed teacher killing a kid who had a fake or unloaded gun.

Why not? Cops do it often enough. It's been known for armed citizens to do it too, and some of those might have been teachers, just not at school. Solution: Don't threaten people with imitation or empty firearms. It's asking for trouble.

OK, working on quiet bear's assertion that she would never send her kid anywhere where she know for sure that someone has a firearm:

Total population of Pennsylvania, as I can find numbers, and it's where the most recent shooting was. 12,300,000, give or take.
Total under over age 21: 8,800,000. This includes convicted felons (even if released) who would be unable to obtain a permit, and also 'acceptably armed' persons such as law enforecement.
Total number of concealed firearms permits issued (1998 figure is best I can find) 575,000, give or take.
Percent of PA population licensed to be armed on the street: 6.5 (one in 15)

So, taking a little statistical analysis, to have a 50-50 chance that a group of random Pennsylvanians has a carry permit, you just need 10 Pennsylvanians.
To have a 99% chance, you only need to have 68 Pennsylvanians in the same place at the same time. How many places do your kids go that in PA would have a near statistical certainty that someone is authorised to carry a firearm? Public bus carries, say, 50 people.

As an aside: Number of teachers in PA, 114,500. Assuming a similar ratio of CCWs to teachers as to the state's population as a whole, 7,600 or so PA teachers are licensed to carry a firearm everywhere except federal property, courtrooms, and schools.

Where do you live? Perhaps I can work out the figures for your state.

NTM

[foo fighter]

California Tanker


Why should his/her being a teacher have any effect on this? In every state, a teacher, just like any other private citizen, can have access to a firearm.



Simple.
Let’s use me for an example. I’ve owned guns before, they don’t bother me and I have ample time and money to buy one; but I don’t b\c I’m not interested in them. I don’t feel like going through all the hoops to own one legally, so I don’t waste time on buying one. Also due to my lack of interest in them I don’t seek to obtain one illegally neither.

But if my job required me to have one then I would b\c it’s an requirement and there is no money that is coming out of my pocket. And maybe due to my status, situation, and job requirement; the school system may have it arrange to where this process is expedited. (due to the screening to get the job in the first place).


So now look what has happen, I have a gun in my possession that I wouldn’t normally have. I might take chances that I wouldn’t normally take. It has been proven and said that a gun gives people a certain amount of confidence that they don’t normally have also

Empowerment.

The power to stop that abusive spouse, thug, stalker, or any other person (s) that they feel is a threat to them. How many times have you heard the phrase “’ I had a gun” or “ he/they are lucky I don’t have a gun” I’ve heard these many times before.


So all of those teachers who wouldn’t go through the trouble (like me) to get a gun on their own, now will be required (maybe) to get one.

[California Tanker]

I don't think that 'requiring' a teacher, or anyone else, to be armed is necessarily the best move possible. But similarly, I don't think that the people who have chosen and licensed to be armed on a daily basis should be prohibited from doing so just because they happen to work at or near a school, or even just drop the kid off at one.

NTM

[Ari]

Originally Posted by California Tanker

No less stupid and reactionary than the usual "Let's ban all guns" every time this sort of thing occurs.

I agree. Both are stupid and reactionary.


I'm going to guess the Amish school is private, in which case allowing public school teachers to carry guns would have done nothing for the Amish school.

Allowing teachers to carry guns brings up a number of legal and safety issues. A number of which could be addressed by adding real police to the schools, people who know what they are doing. (often the same reasons many events contract out to security companies and the police instead of arming up their own personnel.)

[Dingfod]

I think students are better served with teachers being armed. It is one hell of a lot easier to write on the chalkboard if you have arms.

[California Tanker]

Originally Posted by Ari

Allowing teachers to carry guns brings up a number of legal and safety issues.

Would those legal and safety issues not exist everywhere else where 'non-professionals' can currently be armed such as allowing customers to be armed at Safeway, or in an office building?

NTM

[Ari]

Some. However a customer is not an employee.

It would seem like a waste of money, as well as a crush to the school if a teacher ever shot a student. A likely-hood in a high stress situation with an untrained shooter (even police have been known to shoot people to the sides during a dangerous situation). Assuming the event happened in a classroom where the teacher decided to carry a gun.

CT, what is your aversion to hiring people who know what they are doing to protect schools?

[Adam]

I think quiet bear touched on the core issue here. We as a society may be a bit up in arms (ha ha) at the moment about the school shootings currently in the news, but the proportion of kids who die or are injured in such shootings, relative to the entire population of children in school, is vanishingly small. In short, kids in school are at a miniscule risk of being shot, so any proposed solution to the problem of school shootings needs to be proportional.

I suspect that adding armed teachers to the equation will cause more harm than it prevents. It's already failry well established that guns intended for home protection are used against innocents far more often than they're used against actual threats, and I doubt that the relatively chaotic circumstances of a school are going to improve the odds that a gun is used properly.

[Dingfod]

I know that if I were a teacher I would be sorely tempted to pop a cap on some of the smart-ass teenagers that seem so plentiful these days.