Israel using cluster bombs in Gaza?

[angrybellsprout]

I didn't see Russia or China using their veto to block the US invasion of Afghanistan.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by TomJoe

Because Hezbollah is using Lebanese civilians as shields.

So you are saying that Hezbollah killed 750 Lebanese civilians in less than 3 weeks , not Israel ?

[California Tanker]

I think both parties are generous enough admit it was a joint venture.

"I couldn't have done it without the help of the other guy.. thank you, thank you."

NTM

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by Watser?

I'm not implying that at all (btw Russia and China virtually NEVER use their veto, I'll see if I can find a link to those). It seems to me there is a VERY large grey area between supporting them blindly in every way and throwing them to the wolves.

I don't think you can just look at veto record. I mean, GWB has only issued one veto ever, and I doubt we're going to start calling him the most diplomatic president evar ... are we?

The Israeli response on the other hand was outrageoulsy out of proportion.

I think it was intended to demonstrate to Hezbollah that they weren't joking around. Very early in the conflict I read somewhere that a Hezbollah official stated that they certainly didn't expect the response Israel put forth. And I think that was the point. The problem is, Israel has now lost the momentum, and they're going to get stuck in the same quagmire the US is stuck in in terms of Iraq.

We're always going to have this problem with Islamic countries. People might get mad at me for saying that, but when murals* on Iranian buildings have pictures of baby carrying suicide-bomb mothers with the caption "I love being a mother, but I love the idea of being a martyr more." We're fucked.

*Read that in an article in the July 24th issue (I believe it was) of Time.

ETA: It's the July 31st issue. The article was Why Iran Isn't Cheering.

Iranians like Heydari believe that their country, ethnically and linguistically Persian, should stay out of the Arabs' fight with Israel and focus on improving living standards at home. "I don't think it's right to support them when our own people are hungry," says Mohammad Reza Afshari, 23, a mechanic who works two jobs yet still cannot afford to move out or attend college. The shop where he works abuts a vast mural depicting a female suicide bomber with a baby in her arms, accompanied by the words I LOVE MOTHERHOOD, BUT I LOVE MARTYRDOM MORE. Frustration with such propaganda underpins young people's reactions to the conflict. "Where are the Arabs?" asks Afshari angrily. "They're sitting around, while we're risking our position in the world."

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by Raven

So you are saying that Hezbollah killed 750 Lebanese civilians in less than 3 weeks , not Israel ?

Do you think 750 Lebanese civilians would have been killed if Hezbollah fought like a regular army, instead of putting their bases of operations (and firing a portion of their rockets) in Lebanese cities?

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by California Tanker

I think both parties are generous enough admit it was a joint venture.

"I couldn't have done it without the help of the other guy.. thank you, thank you."

NTM

I don't think it really works that way. Hezbollah is responsible for the 19 civilians killed in Israel, but Israel is responsible for all 700 or so civilians in Lebanon:

3. Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;

4. Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

constitutes a 'Serious Violation' (of laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict) it says here

this is also interesting:

The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

Human Rights Watch says Qana is a war crime. Of course we can discuss the 'intentionally' part of the whole thing until the cows come home, but surprising it certainly wasn't. Remember the other massacre at Qana ten years ago?

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by Watser?

I don't think it really works that way. Hezbollah is responsible for the 19 civilians killed in Israel, but Israel is responsible for all 700 or so civilians in Lebanon:

constitutes a 'Serious Violation' (of laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict) it says here

IIRC, Israel is informing people of pending attacks, which gives them time to evacuate the area due to be targetted. Hezbollah isn't even doing that.

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by TomJoe

IIRC, Israel is informing people of pending attacks, which gives them time to evacuate the area due to be targetted. Hezbollah isn't even doing that.

Hahaha, yeah...

Ok, first of all Hezbollah DID warn that they would attack Haifa and other towns, this would have been described (correctly) as THREATS in the press though, which is exactly what Israel's 'warnings' are.

Second, this behavior is exactly what the Serbs were doing in Bosnia: kill a few of them so the rest will run away. It is called ethnic cleansing. That Israel does it to clear the area so they can make it a killing zone and slaughter Hezbollah does not make it ok.

Third, evacuate how? The first thing the Israelis did was bomb the bridges, road, all the infrastructure. The second thing it did (and does) is bomb minibuses, trucks, ambulances, everything that moves. The third thing is bomb everything that doesn't move.

Fourth, evacuate where? Israel has been bombing as far North as Tripoli (a Sunni area btw). And to do what? How to make a living? Do you think this kind of behavior is acceptable in war? Make hundreds of thousands of refugees? Roughly 700.000 did manage to make it out of the South, despite everything, but yes, there are still some people left, the poor, the elderly, the disabled, children.

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by Watser?

Ok, first of all Hezbollah DID warn that they would attack Haifa and other towns, this would have been described (correctly) as THREATS in the press though, which is exactly what Israel's 'warnings' are.

Does Hezbollah do this each and every time they launch a rocket? I doubt it. I've read (I can try to find the source) that Israel has been waging a leaflet campaign detailing the exact areas they plan to attack and when they plan to do it. Now, they may not be doing this in each and every instance, but they have been doing so. Which I doubt can be said for Hezbollah which seems to be indiscrimantly firing anti-personnel rockets into Israeli cities, by the hundreds.

Second, this behavior is exactly what the Serbs were doing in Bosnia: kill a few of them so the rest will run away. It is called ethnic cleansing. That Israel does it to clear the area so they can make it a killing zone and slaughter Hezbollah does not make it ok.

Israel is attempting to establish a buffer zone, so Hezbollah doesn't launch any further rockets into Israel. I wouldn't liken that to "ethnic cleasning", far from it. If Hezbollah, which has waged war on Israel, are slaughtered ... so be it. They want the fight, they should expect that it will come with losses to their forces.

Third, evacuate how? The first thing the Israelis did was bomb the bridges, road, all the infrastructure. The second thing it did (and does) is bomb minibuses, trucks, ambulances, everything that moves. The third thing is bomb everything that doesn't move.

If, after being warned, that Israel is going to bomb a particular location at a particular time, you're stupid enough to be out driving a minibus ... I mean, really.

[angrybellsprout]

Exactly, you are supposed to be evacuated by the magical flying carpet...

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by angrybellsprout

I see your lips moving, but I can't hear a word you're saying.

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by TomJoe

Does Hezbollah do this each and every time they launch a rocket? I doubt it. I've read (I can try to find the source) that Israel has been waging a leaflet campaign detailing the exact areas they plan to attack and when they plan to do it. Now, they may not be doing this in each and every instance, but they have been doing so. Which I doubt can be said for Hezbollah which seems to be indiscrimantly firing anti-personnel rockets into Israeli cities, by the hundreds.

Again: this not make it ok. The IRA used to warn too before they blew things up. Does that mean everyone who is blown up has only himself to blame?

Second, this behavior is exactly what the Serbs were doing in Bosnia: kill a few of them so the rest will run away. It is called ethnic cleansing. That Israel does it to clear the area so they can make it a killing zone and slaughter Hezbollah does not make it ok.

Israel is attempting to establish a buffer zone, so Hezbollah doesn't launch any further rockets into Israel. I wouldn't liken that to "ethnic cleasning", far from it. If Hezbollah, which has waged war on Israel, are slaughtered ... so be it. They want the fight, they should expect that it will come with losses to their forces.

Well, I would. They are clearing the area of the people who live there. The reason is not very important is it? Again I ask you, do you think it is acceptable to do this (chase away hundreds of thousands) in a war (especially a war that was launched over a relatively minor incident)?

If, after being warned, that Israel is going to bomb a particular location at a particular time, you're stupid enough to be out driving a minibus ... I mean, really.

You are stupid enough to try and flee the area in a minibus loaded with civilians, you mean? So you think it is ok to blow up minibuses loaded with civilians as long as you warn them?
Again: The IRA used to warn too before they blew things up. Does that mean everyone who is blown up has only himself to blame?

[Dragar]

Originally Posted by TomJoe

As for the United Nations, it's a joke.

Then as a good first step in solving the above problems, this should be corrected.

It's a bit above a joke. But it certainly doesn't have the power it requires.

As for Israel's threa- er, warnings it will be bombing a certain area...that's all well and good, if you have the capability to leave. And then you have the problem of what those evacuees are going to do. And what they will do when they return to find their home or place of work has been destroyed.

I agree Hezbullah are being no better - perhaps even worse - than Israel in this. The only difference is they don't have the power to drive Israel 20 years into the past.

[California Tanker]

Originally Posted by Watser

this is also interesting:

That said, it is also explicitly permitted for any power to instruct civilian populace to leave if compliance with such instruction would reduce in less civilian death. The difference is that while they can instruct all they want, they can't round people up and put them into trucks and ship them off. Ultimately, it's the civilian's choice to stay or not. In the case of Lebanon, Israel is not lots of ordering, but not actual transfers or deportation.

NTM

[angrybellsprout]

Zionist terrorists called in before they blew up the King David Hotel and they are seen as great heros in the west...

[mountain_hare]

TomJoe:

Does Hezbollah do this each and every time they launch a rocket? I doubt it.

Does Israel warn the Lebanese civilians every time they drop a bomb? No, not really. They just drop leaflets stating that there will be aerial bombardment in particular general areas. Hezbollah also gave warnings that they would bombard towns such as Haifa.

I've read (I can try to find the source) that Israel has been waging a leaflet campaign detailing the exact areas they plan to attack and when they plan to do it.

How exactly is Hezbollah meant to wage a 'leaflet campaign', if they don't have an aerial force to do so? Do you expect them to fire leaflets in mortar shells?

Which I doubt can be said for Hezbollah which seems to be indiscrimantly firing anti-personnel rockets into Israeli cities, by the hundreds.

And? Those cities contain Israeli military bases. Those cities contain means of transportation used by the Israelis. The train stations in particular would be used to bring Israeli soldiers and IDF reserves to the front. In fact, this was the EXACT same argument used by the IDF when they bombed Lebanese roads and highways, which ordinary civilians use every day.

The civilians which are killed? Collateral damage. Bad luck. Perhaps Israel should think twice before invading a sovereign nation, hmmm?

Israel is attempting to establish a buffer zone,

Silly bullshit. If Israel was attempting to establish a buffer zone, it wouldn't feel the need to bomb the northernmost end of Lebanon. And no matter what your aim is, excessive civilian casualties are never justified.

so Hezbollah doesn't launch any further rockets into Israel.

Excellent. So Hezbollah is justified in sending rockets into Northern Israeli towns in order to produce a buffer zone.

I wouldn't liken that to "ethnic cleasning", far from it. If Hezbollah, which has waged war on Israel, are slaughtered ... so be it. They want the fight,

Not really. Israel still has hundreds of Lebanese civilians in its prisons, who have not yet been charged or given a fair trial. Hezbollah wanted to exchange soldiers for civilians. Again, I don't see anything wrong with this.

they should expect that it will come with losses to their forces.

But you continually ignore the fact that the vast majority of casualties are civilians.

If, after being warned, that Israel is going to bomb a particular location at a particular time, you're stupid enough to be out driving a minibus ... I mean, really.

How is that stupid? Perhaps its the only vehicle that the civilians have access to?

If Israel bombs a minibus which contained civilians who were NOT firing, then Israel is to blame. That's common sense. To say otherwise would be like saying that the rape victim is to blame for her rape, because she walked down a dark alley.

[Annie]

Originally Posted by Raven

But for some weird reason whichever weapon they use hundreds of civilians die.

Originally Posted by TomJoe

Because Hezbollah is using Lebanese civilians as shields.

Originally Posted by Raven

So you are saying that Hezbollah killed 750 Lebanese civilians in less than 3 weeks , not Israel ?

Hezbollah doesn't fight like a regular army would.

Instead, they hid upward of 10,000 bombs in the basements of, and thruout, Lebanese civilian apartment...buildings, from where they started, and carried-out, their murderous attacks.

What's in it for people (generic), to support terrorists like Hezbollah in their murderous attacks?

Annie

[Dingfod]

What's in it for you, to support Israel in their utter devastation of vast areas of Lebanon's cities and near complete destruction of any semblance of an economy?

[Dingfod]

Oh, and way to dredge up a dead thread without adding anything to it.

[Annie]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

What's in it for you, to support Israel in their utter devastation of vast areas of Lebanon's cities, and near complete destruction of any semblance of an economy?

Why did the Lebanese government allow? Hezbollah terrorists to infiltrate, and control their country to this point of crisis - thus responsible.

Israelites (from the likes of Hezbollah terrorists) have a right to defend themselves, which they did. It tolerated similar abuses for long enough.

Annie

[Dingfod]

So, you think it's okay to kill large numbers of innocents to get at a few well dug-in "terrorists"? So much for any respect for innocent human life, hypocrite.

Hezbollah was created as a response to the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon. Israel went in there because of the PLO. Did they get rid of them during two decades of oppressive occupation? No. Do you think their current campaign will make less or more terrorists in the long run? I'm almost sure it will make more, not less.

[Annie]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Oh, and way to dredge up a dead thread without adding anything to it.

Were this thread a year, or even 3-6 months, old - that opinion would be reasonable. But it's less than a month.

Had the response been written by someone who shares your beleifs/religion/Agenda & supported that, you would've voiced your approval.

Annie

[Dingfod]

I have called people on thread necromancy even when I liked what they posted. If you were responding to posts that were addressed to you, why didn't you respond in less than two weeks? You've been here almost every damn day since the previous post to yours.

[Annie]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

So, you think it's okay to kill large numbers of innocents to get at a few well dug-in "terrorists"? So much for any respect for innocent human life, hypocrite.

Hezbollah was created as a response to the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon. Israel went in there because of the PLO. Did they get rid of them during two decades of oppressive occupation? No. Do you think their current campaign will make less or more terrorists in the long run? I'm almost sure it will make more, not less.

When a person can't bring himself to, having a discussion with another person, without the first calling the 2nd. any number of foul names like bitch, hypocrite, and others you're fond of, before
himself spiraling down into further abuses - then there's no point in continuing.

I consider all such means a waste of time.

Annie

[Dingfod]

Put me on Ignore then, you hypocritical bitch.