I am upbeat and happy with my country.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

However, Sauron's post to LionsDen was merely an occasion for amusement, since LionsDen is clearly worth little more effort than that, whereas the reply to Annie was actually fairly substantive.

Indeed. I've been through this spill over at christianforums and subsequently got banned for my behavior in my response to such topics meant to inflame, insult, or downright confuse the masses.

I await either LD's or Annies response before I go digging for facts to ILLUSTRATE that if this country was indeed founded upon Christian morals, then that makes the whole religion not worth a shit as the evidence will show.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

(WHICH I ALREADY POSTED TO HIM IN, IN THE SAME VAIN I ALWAYS DO)

michael

Hate to be the one to tell ya, poptart, but *all* your posts are in vain.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

you country WAS founded on christian morals. just fucking own it and see the good points christianity can contribute. it isn't all horrible because the world isn't. i am not a christian and i see totally why people hate it, for the things done in its name, but there is a big divide over what influenced the making of your country and its laws. sure, some laws and the philosophy behind them predate christianity, but many just end up in old-testament commandments and verses. and the fact is, much of the philosophy and ideas were carried on through christianity, which most americans were. it is silly to think the bible or christianity had no say in the creation of your country or constitution. that is nonsense...it had a say in what you are today, let alone america. it has influenced everything...own it and then you can get rid of it.

michael

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Smilin

Oh really? YOUR country was bought and paid for with the blood OF MY DESCENDANTS. I'm half Cherokee, so excuse me..I have to start screaming now...[Begin screaming rant]
WAS IT IN YOUR FUCKING VERSION OF GOD THAT WAS THE REASON FOR SO MANY OF MY DESCENDANT'S BEING SLAUGHTERED? FUCK YOU AND HIM BOTH

Did you, perhaps, mean ANCESTORS? BTW, I am also part Cherokee and Choctaw, as well as Scotch-Irish, English, Welsh and Swiss. My ancestors killed my ancestors. I am so conflicted. Should I hate myself?

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

I am so conflicted. Should I hate myself?

yes. be sure to give yourself a label.


michael

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

that is a complete lie.

Fair enough. "Much occasion," then. And I had in mind LionsDen's Dobson/Staver-spam, which comprises roughly 95% of his posting activity here, wherein I've never once encountered your username. Sorry for not making that clear.

And I can't speak for Sauron, obviously, but I feel that I've earned the right to hold the opinion that LionsDen is a troll. Once again, I refer you to the wikipedia entry on "internet troll." There are such things as internet trolls, you know.

You're free to laugh, once again, at the wikipedia definitions and examples of internet trolls, but if wikipedia is reliable on any topics, it's those having to do with online culture.

you obviously skim and find what you want to argue about.

Well, who doesn't? And this coming from the guy who apparently just skimmed Sauron's substantive reply to Annie and fixated on a fleeting reference to "Ms. Troll." You're a funny guy, michael.

what can i say?

I'm confident you'll think of something.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

Did you, perhaps, mean ANCESTORS?

Why yes. That's exactly what I meant. I was so rioled up by his post I completely lost my train of thought. See what happens when I respond to troll bait?

BTW, I am also part Cherokee and Choctaw, as well as Scotch-Irish, English, Welsh and Swiss. My ancestors killed my ancestors. I am so conflicted. Should I hate myself?

Or perhaps we could simply have a beer together? I'm half Irish, half Cherokee myself.

Is that permissable with your religious views? Are you allowed to have a beer with a heathon, half-breed type such as myself?

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

Well, who doesn't? And this coming from the guy who apparently just skimmed Sauron's substantive reply to Annie and fixated on a fleeting reference to "Ms. Troll." You're a funny guy, michael.

see?? you're skimming again :

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

you obviously skim and find what you want to argue about. that's ok, but you will sometimes end up not knowing the whole truth...i do that too sometimes

and this...

what can i say?

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

I'm confident you'll think of something.

made me laugh


michael

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

your country WAS founded on christian morals. * * * it is silly to think the bible or christianity had no say in the creation of your country or constitution.

Please feel free to discuss the Biblical and/or Christian elements of the U.S. Constitution.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

you country WAS founded on christian morals. just fucking own it and see the good points christianity can contribute.

ahhhh...rape, murder, and theft of land from the original peoples? Those are Christian morals are they?

No thanks. I'd rather serve that anti-Christ of that religion.

Who would that be I wonder?

[Sock Puppet]

That's it, I'm taking LionsDen off ignore. I happened to click on this thread from the main index page, and the contributions from The Lone Ranger (excellent quote), Raven (did you make that gif? Can I steal it?), and Sauron () have convinced me that it's worth reading LD's horseshit, or at least un-hiding his threads.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

oh i don't know...it was written by christians (not all, i know...), for a population that was mostly christian, in a world that was heavily influenced by the bible...

if you need me to explain it, you're stupid. if you think that is me being lazy, you're right. i have laundry to do and i want to get out on my bike. if you can't see how christianity and the bible influenced the entire world, lending philosophy and concept to it, shaping even you, d. scarlatti...then you're not as smart as i thought.

i don't have to find proof for something so basic. this is a forum for intelligent people...or so i thought.

michael

[RareBear]

Can't think of a better way to declare one's assholeness than to start a thread favoring bluster and blather from the likes of a bloated drug addicted Nazi like Rush Limbaugh. Duh to the tenth power.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

if you need me to explain it, you're stupid. if you think that is me being lazy, you're right. i have laundry to do and i want to get out on my bike. if you can't see how christianity and the bible influenced the entire world, lending philosophy and concept to it, shaping even you, d. scarlatti...then you're not as smart as i thought.

i don't have to find proof for something so basic. this is a forum for intelligent people...or so i thought.

No, michael. The idea is to start with the text of the Constitution and discuss the Biblical/Christian elements therein.

You know ... like ... to support your claim?

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Smilin

ahhhh...rape, murder, and theft of land from the original peoples? Those are Christian morals are they?

that is totally a strawman argument meant to evoke emotion...of course there are no christian morals there, but there were also atheists that signed the constitution...

of course that is horrible, but we need to stop scapegoating religion and labels, when it is PEOPLE who are guilty, people from everywhere that believe everything. christians don't commit more crimes...no evidence will make me believe that.

and it might not be moral, but christianity did inspire the slaughter of natives not even considered human in the eyes of god. money also played a large role...that's a religion we all belong to

you actually prove me right in your answer. you're just disappointed that christians aren't living up to what they claim, but they're just doing what most everybody else is- failing themselves...and looking to blame others.

michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

No, michael. The idea is to start with the text of the Constitution and discuss the Biblical/Christian elements therein.

You know ... like ... to support your claim?

well i thought i just did. i'm not good at looking up evidence or that kind of shit. that's why i didn't become a lawyer

you don't have to believe me, i don't care...i stand by what i said. i base that on what seems to be common sense, not facts.

michael

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

well i thought i just did.

Um, no. "It was written by Christians" doesn't quite cut it. You need to deal with its contents in relation to the contents of the Bible and the contents of Christian teachings and beliefs.

i'm not good at looking up evidence or that kind of shit.

I can help you get started.

you don't have to believe me

I don't.

i don't care

Why did you mention it in the first place then?

i stand by what i said.

This tells me nothing.

i base that on what seems to be common sense, not facts.

Not facts, okay. And not even common sense, but only what seems to you to be common sense. Okay.

Have a nice bicycle ride, michael.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

that is totally a strawman argument meant to evoke emotion...of course there are no christian morals there,

A strawman? or is it based loosely upon facts? I tend to think the latter.

WAIT...first you claim that America was founded upon Christian morals, and now you're claiming it wasn't????? Which is it?

but there were also atheists that signed the constitution...

I really don't know the religious beliefs (or nonbelievfs) of those who signed
the Constitution.

of course that is horrible, but we need to stop scapegoating religion and labels, when it is PEOPLE who are guilty, people from everywhere that believe everything. christians don't commit more crimes...no evidence will make me believe that.

I can only speek from the histroy that has been written/happened. It was Christians who persecuted my ancestors. It was Christians that forced my ancestors to march westward towards Oklahoma. It was Christians that stole our land after gold was discovered in Northern Georgia. It was Christians who shot those who refused to leave or couldn't keep up with the pace.

Need I continue?

and it might not be moral, but christianity did inspire the slaughter of natives not even considered human in the eyes of god. money also played a large role...that's a religion we all belong to

You belong to that religion. I've washed my hands of it for good.

And how do you get the point that the native Americans were not considered humin in the eyes of their God?

You see, this is what riols me. Statements like that! I'd be attacked by black people if I made a similar off-handed comment like that concerning black people and evolution. I think you know what I'm eluding to.

you actually prove me right in your answer. you're just disappointed that christians aren't living up to what they claim, but they're just doing what most everybody else is- failing themselves...and looking to blame others.

michael

Yes. I am disappointed in a religion that can't tolerate people who are different from the perceived norm. And I've been hardened to my stance against it.

[Sock Puppet]

Originally Posted by Smilin

You belong to that religion. I've washed my hands of it for good.

Really? If you have any leftover currency, I'd be happy to ensure you remain liberated from that particular religion.

Originally Posted by Smilin

And how do you get the point that the native Americans were not considered humin in the eyes of their God?

You see, this is what riols me. Statements like that! I'd be attacked by black people if I made a similar off-handed comment like that concerning black people and evolution. I think you know what I'm eluding to.

Smilin, that was just a poorly constructed sentence, I think. I believe The Jesus Stoner was referring to the belief among the oppressors was that the native Americans were not human in the eyes of the oppressors' god.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

Smilin, that was just a poorly constructed sentence, I think. I believe The Jesus Stoner was referring to the belief among the oppressors was that the native Americans were not human in the eyes of the oppressors' god.

OHHHHH...okay then........nevermind!

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Smilin

Is that permissable with your religious views? Are you allowed to have a beer with a heathon, half-breed type such as myself?

Only if you promise not to make me drink Bud Light.

Originally Posted by Smilin

I can only speek from the histroy that has been written/happened. It was Christians who persecuted my ancestors. It was Christians that forced my ancestors to march westward towards Oklahoma. It was Christians that stole our land after gold was discovered in Northern Georgia. It was Christians who shot those who refused to leave or couldn't keep up with the pace.

Some of them may have professed the Christian faith, and some not. Most of them were also Anglo-Americans, some of them were not. The didn't mistreat the Cherokee because they were Christian or Anglo-American, but because they were land hungry, greedy, bastards.

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

I believe The Jesus Stoner was referring to the belief among the oppressors was that the native Americans were not human in the eyes of the oppressors' god.

I am not aware of any Christian denomination that promoted that doctrine. The fact is that most denominations sent out missionaries to save the heathen savages' souls. If they had not considered them human, they would not have bothered trying to save their souls. That the indigenous people were treated inhumanely is a historical fact. That this was motivated by a religious based conviction that they were not human is pure myth. Did the majority of European-Americans hold profoundly racist views regarding native peoples. absolutely. However, this was rooted in a pervasive, if mistaken, attitude of cultural superiority. An attitude characteristic of every major colonial power. It was a convenient attitude, since it allowed them to treat native peoples, the world over, with the utmost disregard for human dignity.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

well they were only human if they accepted christ. they were expendable otherwise...that was more the point.

michael

[Sock Puppet]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

I am not aware of any Christian denomination that promoted that doctrine. The fact is that most denominations sent out missionaries to save the heathen savages' souls. If they had not considered them human, they would not have bothered trying to save their souls. That the indigenous people were treated inhumanely is a historical fact. That this was motivated by a religious based conviction that they were not human is pure myth. Did the majority of European-Americans hold profoundly racist views regarding native peoples. absolutely. However, this was rooted in a pervasive, if mistaken, attitude of cultural superiority. An attitude characteristic of every major colonial power. It was a convenient attitude, since it allowed them to treat native peoples, the world over, with the utmost disregard for human dignity.

I'd agree with that. I was clarifying for Smilin that the statement was not meant to be racist. Ignorant and presumptive, but not racist.

[godfry n. glad]

And just who were the signators to the Constitution?

[quiet bear]

I've lost track of who's arguing with whom.

Where's the sprout? He'll straighten this mess out.