~happiness is a warm gun~AKA~gun control~

[Socratoad]

OK, this is just a thought, but the gun thing is something I've thought about for years. So many gun deaths happen when the person with access to the gun is drunk. Now in my considered opinion its no sense comparing guns with sticks, knives, etc, for the simple reason that it takes none to little cognizance to simply pull a trigger when one barely is capable of thought let alone action. Its all rather impersonal when one is bombed out of one's tree .... something is perceived as annoying and there is the gun.

How many more people might be killed if all drunks were armed rather than just have their fists to lash out with? The problem with most reasoning as I see it is that most people equate gun deaths with gangs or criminals, when in fact most gun related deaths happen within families.

[Dingfod]

Actually according to the CDC 2002 Injury Mortality Report, suicides make up 56.6% of all gun deaths in the U.S. Homicide, by sober people or drunkards, account for 39.1% of them. Accidents only account for about 2.5% (762, compare that to 767 deaths in bicycle accidents). As a matter of fact, risk factor and all, you are only about twice as likely to be murdered by a gun as a pedestrian is getting killed by traffic. Is anyone telling pedestrians to stay home? No, of course not.

Interesting sidebar: Police shot and killed 300 people in 2002, or only about 1% of the total gun deaths. How many of them were what we call police-assisted suicides?

On the other side of the coin, the number of times a gun is used to deter crimes, even possibly rape or murder is for the most part unrecorded and under reported, but by some estimates is more than 1 million times per year, with the NRA saying it is more than 2 million times a year.

I don't know why I'm staying in this, I know I'm not going to sway any of you anti-gun people to my POV. Hell, I'm not even the best spokesperson for the issue because I too don't believe in completely unregulated gun ownership. I would even support requirements for training and competency requirements, licensing and even actual registration. See why I'm not an NRA member?

[Dingfod]

Interesting information if available from the CDC. About 30% of all gun homicides occur between the ages of 15 and 24.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Neither have I, but that doesn't mean I don't feel safer having one if it ever became necessary.

Well you'd probably feel even safer if you barricaded yourself in the house and never ventured outside, but you're apparently not doing that. (This absurd argument brought to you as counterpoint to your comparison between car and gun related deaths ).

Remind yourself that you thought that if the situation does come up.

I think instead I'll just lament the fact that I can't legally own a gun because I'm a convicted felon.

But, perhaps you can subdue your attacker with your sharp wit.

I doubt it. In my experience violent criminals don't have a very nuanced sense of humor.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Well you'd probably feel even safer if you barricaded yourself in the house and never ventured outside,

Probably.

... but you're apparently not doing that.

Oh, I don't know. I don't really get out much any more, too scary and I can't stand people.

(This absurd argument brought to you as counterpoint to your comparison between car and gun related deaths ).

At least I'm consistent. I still ride in automobiles even though the risk of getting killed is half again more than getting killed by a gun. But, I'm almost never a pedestrian any more even though the risk of getting killed is about half that of getting murdered by a gun.

Edit: I ride a motorcycle. How fucking risky is that? So what I've got guns. I've got a motorcycle. I'm far away more likely to get killed or injured riding that than by anything else I do.

Remind yourself that you thought that if the situation does come up.

I think instead I'll just lament the fact that I can't legally own a gun because I'm a convicted felon. [/quote]Oops, I knew that. I feel a bit stupid now.

I doubt it. In my experience violent criminals don't have a very nuanced sense of humor.

Really, I figured a good pun would put them on the floor.


Or, was that punt... ?

[Dingfod]

I just looked it up. I'm about 9 times as likely to die riding a motorcycle than to be killed by a gun by an means, accident, cops, suicide or homicide. Let's ban them sumbitches, there's only a couple million of them registered for the road, far easier to get rid of than guns.

[Zoot]

Do people actually support gun ownership because of the Constitution? Or do they support the Constitution on the matter cos they agree with it?

[Zoot]

I just looked it up. I'm about 9 times as likely to die riding a motorcycle than to be killed by a gun by an means, accident, cops, suicide or homicide. Let's ban them sumbitches, there's only a couple million of them registered for the road, far easier to get rid of than guns.

Motorcycles serve a purpose beyond killing. As do kitchen knives and razor blades.

[Farren]

Originally Posted by warrenly

I just looked it up. I'm about 9 times as likely to die riding a motorcycle than to be killed by a gun by an means, accident, cops, suicide or homicide. Let's ban them sumbitches, there's only a couple million of them registered for the road, far easier to get rid of than guns.

The problem with comparing stats like that is that most people don't take their gun out on the streets twice every working day and shoot it all over the place. Its a poor comparison.

[Dingfod]

I keep hearing that argument. But, I also keep hearing about that guns are dangerous. So are a lot of things like motorcycles, or just walking down the street. If I am put in the position where I have to kill someone to keep them from killing me or someone else, I want the proper tool for the job and the best too I can think of for that purpose is a gun.

Motorcycles are very dangerous, 3162 deaths for a little over five million motorcycles registered. I've heard numbers of licensed motorcycles is only a little over two million. So, even thought they may have a legitimate purpose other than killing, they are pretty damn efficient killing machines, about 9 times better than the 180 million guns estimated to be in the hands of the 80 some odd million American gun owners.



Guns have other purposes too, like making salads.

[Zoot]

Motorcycles are very dangerous, 3162 deaths for a little over five million motorcycles registered. I've heard numbers of licensed motorcycles is only a little over two million. So, even thought they may have a legitimate purpose other than killing, they are pretty damn efficient killing machines, about 9 times better than the 180 million guns estimated to be in the hands of the 80 some odd million American gun owners.

If guns were only likely to kill their owners, I'd be inclined to agree. But as it stands, the people who die from motorcycle incidents are usually the people who chose to ride the motorcycle. That's not analogous to guns. The objection isn't that guns cause death. The objection is that guns cause other people's deaths.

[Farren]

A proper measurement of danger is relative to usage. Anything with a risk attached that's done extremely often is riskier than something with similar or even much more risk that's done far less regularly. It doesn't mean each individual instances are riskier. If you bathed 50 times a day the risk of you slipping and breaking your neck in the bath would be fairly high. That's basic stats.

Its a non starter. People can die by choking on pretzels. If you just want to arbitrarily draw lines according to even the faintest possibility of killing yourself, the same exercise can be done in the opposite direction. i.e. Rocket propelled weaponry and tanks for everyone! After all you could die by choking on a pretzel and pretzels are legal!

Aside from that, if a lot of people die on bikes maybe someone should be looking at why. Most bike nuts I've met like to travel at speeds so fast you get tunnel vision and something is a dot on the horizon one second then a lorry in your face the next. One of the people I spent christmas eve with was casually talking about taking his plates off last christmas and hitting 270 km/hour on a potholed stretch with his 13 year old son on the back. I've always wondered: Why are so many bikes legally sold that are designed to go up to 3 times the maximum speed limit?

[Dingfod]

Gotta run. More later.

[Farren]

[deleted] Just realised how you worked out your stats after re-reading your post.

In any event, I'd say you made a pretty strong case for regulating motorcycles more.

[Socratoad]

Farren your reference to people dying from choking on pretzels is perhaps wishful thinking, at least in the case that readily popped into my mind.

[Darren]

[QUOTE=warrenly]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Children get run over by their own parent's cars by accident and people get hit and killed by cars when they're walking to get help for their car that is broken down on the freeway, and drunken drivers kill people by the hundreds every damn day. Much like guns, cars are just plain dangerous in normal every day use, but hardly anyone is advocating banning cars for that reason.

Cars have, as their primary function, transportation utility. Guns, particularly handguns and assault weapons, are designed to kill people and have no utility value whatsoever.
I'm not a car fan, but public transport won't get me to and from work so I have to use a car. I'm all for speed limits and other safety measures to limit the danger involved, but at least cars are not designed to kill, even if they could (and should) be better designed from a safety point of view.

As to the central thread here, I loathe guns for a great number of reasons. Some of these reasons are private, others would simply rehearse the arguments already made by Socratoad and Farren .
I've never heard a really good argument for having, say, a handgun for self-defence. That's a chimera if ever there was one. I also think that any support, however small, for the arms industry is unwarranted.
I'm totally in favour of the wholesale banning of handguns and assault weapons. The banning of these weapons in my native Scotland followed the massacre of a large number of children in a primary school in Dunblane, Stirlingshire. The killer was an adult who legally possessed firearms, was a member of a gun club and was highly trained and experienced in their use. His weapons,training and experience helped him despatch many young children in a short space of time.

Here in Brittany, where I now live, there are lots of hunters who possess shotguns etc. for the purpose of killing various small species of animals. (Whatever gets you going, I suppose!) I don't, on the other hand, know anyone here who possesses or would want to possess a handgun, let alone an assault rifle. What for?
I'm not sure what the legislation is concerning handgun ownership in France, but the laws are certainly extremely tight over use of lethal force even in self defence. In any case, I don't believe that hangun ownership is widespread in this country. Thank goodness!
The Gendarmes and most Police do carry firearms here, though.
Also, especially in the East of France, there have been cases of robbery involving explosives, rocket launchers and assault weapons (the Gendarmes and Police are not generally equipped with these so there is some support for the idea of a civil "arms race" here). There have also been a fair number of French police killed in various attacks involving firearms, rare in the U.K. where the Police are not as a rule equipped with firearms (Northern Ireland excepted on both points). This seems to offer further support to the "arms race" argument.
A fairly recent incident in France involved an off-duty officer who let fly, for reasons not too clear, a round from his pistol while at home. It traversed the wall of his flat and killed a little girl next door.
In my view, (and in my experience) guns are not worth the trouble they cause, and should be gotten rid of as soon as possible.
So, all you gun lovers out there, beat them into ploughshares for humanity's sake!

[Socratoad]

Good post Darren

And not because you mentioned my name.

[Darren]

Originally Posted by Farren

you could die by choking on a pretzel and pretzels are legal!

And so they should be legal!

I think we should start a National Pretzel Association (NPA). Our slogan could be:
"Pretzels don't kill people, people.... oh damn"

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Darren

Guns, particularly handguns and assault weapons, are designed to kill people and have no utility value whatsoever.

This is the absolute last time I'm going say anything about this.* Again, I am not the best spokesperson for the NRA, I was never specifically defending the right to own handguns or assault weapons, in the wrong hands they are indeed a dangerous thing.

Darren, within that very sentence of yours, you have stated exactly what the utility value is of handguns and assault weapons (although I was never defending them to begin with), they ARE designed to kill people, that IS their utility value. I've said it a couple of times and I'm going to say it one last time, they are a tool with a purpose and if you need a tool for that purpose, there isn't much of a tool that is better suited for that purpose.

Farren, in Utah alone there were more than 40,000 concealed weapon permit holders, probably at least half of which carry their weapon every time they are out in the public. Extrapolating that to the general population of the country, not by population because that would mean multiplying by 140, but only by the number of states that have the liberalized concealed weapons permits, multiplying by 25, that means there are about 500,000 concealed weapons permit holders carrying their weapons every day. Compare that to motorcycles, where only about 100,000 motorcyclists ride theirs every single working day that they can. Just by those facts alone, a motorcycle is a much more effective killing machine than guns.

Ammunition sales subject to the federal excise tax exceed $500 million, so even if the average cost per round were a dollar that means 500 million rounds sold in the civilian market. Someone is shooting up all that ammunition and relatively few people are being shot by it.

One more point, I don't want to appear to be racist, but here's a fact that is kind of disturbing to me, and should be even more so in the black community, 46% of all gun killings are committed by blacks, who represent about 12% of the population. Even worse, over 53% of the victims of fatal shootings are black. I'm not even going to speculate what that means should be done.

Edited to say: *That's probably not true.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Darren

And so they should be legal!

I think we should start a National Pretzel Association (NPA). Our slogan could be:
"Pretzels don't kill people, people.... oh damn"

Pretzels have no utility value except for choking, they are almost 100% carbohydrates, empty calories, valueless. I cannot count how many times I've jabbed a hole in the roof of my mouth with the sharp point of a broken pretzel, they should be outlawed and the grain they are made with fed to the animals I'm going to shoot and eat instead.

[Socratoad]

Symptoms Warrenly, symptoms, as are all the ills of society.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Zoot

If guns were only likely to kill their owners, I'd be inclined to agree. But as it stands, the people who die from motorcycle incidents are usually the people who chose to ride the motorcycle. That's not analogous to guns. The objection isn't that guns cause death. The objection is that guns cause other people's deaths.

You are completely wrong about that, firearms are used in suicides 45% more than they are for murder or accidental killings.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Just by those facts alone, a motorcycle is a much more effective killing machine than guns.

But that totally ignores Zoot's point that motorcycles almost always kill their riders, whereas guns almost always kill someone else.

Dammit, crosspost. Hmm... so you're saying guns are used in 45% more suicides than homicides? That seems hard to believe... linky?

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Socratoad

Symptoms Warrenly, symptoms, as are all the ills of society.

But, my dear Socratoad, that points to something wrong with the people, not the inanimate object known as a gun.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

But that totally ignores Zoot's point that motorcycles almost always kill their riders, whereas guns almost always kill someone else.

Crossposter. Suicides by firearm in 2002 = 17,108, Murders 11,829.