billy the butcher

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by michael1111

hello...they had the right to say it and they did.

No, they didn't. That's the point. They had the ability to say it, but not the right. If they had the right to say it they wouldn't have been imprisoned. People aren't sent to prison for exercising their rights, unless you're defining "rights" in some bizarre way.

[michael1111]

no...they had the right. we all have the right to say what we want and suffer the consequences. this isnt about a right...

before women could vote, could they even enter a polling station? no, so they were denied the right. you are not denied the right to speak because its something they cant control until after the fact. i think its a flaw in the system that should be taken advantage of.

i understand what youre saying and i see exactly where youre coming from, but i still think youre wrong. people need to believe they have the power to speak their minds for the world to get any better. thats my own opinion, but your mindset and that of the others seems to suppress what shouldnt be. often, we are our own worst enemies.

michael

[thewantingseed]

Er...If we were to follow your logic, the women actually did have the right to enter a polling station. I'm sure there was a way to physically enter one before being stopped.

[michael1111]

oh now youre just nit-picking. you know EXACTLY what point im trying to make. come on...

voting is a right. speaking is not...its part of being a human animal.

michael

[thewantingseed]

They also had the right, the priviledge-the freedom, dammit!- to suffer the consequences.
Following your ideas of each, of course.

EDIT: xposted.
Nope. Not nitpicking. You made a fallacious statement, I pointed it out. Welcome to the friendly world of debate.

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by michael1111

no...they had the right. we all have the right to say what we want and suffer the consequences. this isnt about a right...

Exercising a right means that you will not face legal consequences for doing so. That's what a right is.

before women could vote, could they even enter a polling station? no, so they were denied the right.

Irrelevant and rambling.

you are not denied the right to speak because its something they cant control until after the fact.

Not really. In North Korea they fill people's mouths with rocks before public executions to prevent them from denouncing the regime just before being shot.

i think its a flaw in the system that should be taken advantage of.

Not a flaw, as demonstrated above.

i understand what youre saying and i see exactly where youre coming from, but i still think youre wrong. people need to believe they have the power to speak their minds for the world to get any better. thats my own opinion, but your mindset and that of the others seems to suppress what shouldnt be. often, we are our own worst enemies.

How is vm's mindset suppressing anyone or anything?

[michael1111]

no, they didnt. they couldnt vote cuz it didnt count. if you are arrested for your speech, it obviously has substance. youre actually not following my ideas at all. they were barred from voting, they werent heard, they werent even part of the equation. it was available to them cuz it was a right. speech is something available to us all...its not a right, but a way to survive.

michael

[ChuckF]

Seriously, dude, you need to get past the whole women's suffrage thing. You have no idea what you're talking about there.

[michael1111]

some of your arguments are lame, chuck. as for the first point, i probably shouldnt have used 'right' with free speech...

you and vm are suppressing freedom of speech by finding the most ludicrous reasons to promote the fact that it doesnt exist really. you are fighting to deny free speech, though im sure you wont see it that way.

michael

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by michael1111

voting is a right. speaking is not...its part of being a human animal.

Ah, but nobody means "you have the right to use your vocal chords" when they talk about "free speech". They mean (typically) "you have the right to say what you want without fear of reprisal from the government". Of course every human has the former right, but the latter is guaranteed for Americans in our constitution.

[thewantingseed]

Sigh...that post is not even worth debating, I'm sorry.
EDIT: the one before the last one. I'm slow tonight.

[michael1111]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Seriously, dude, you need to get past the whole women's suffrage thing. You have no idea what you're talking about there.

its just an example, and what do you know about what i know? i used a simple and quick example. instead of debating me and offering up your pov, you seem more keen on making me look stupid. well i dont care. i dont think i look or sound stupid. i could care less what you think. i will debate you, but whats this quote got to do with anything, except show your cards. you know i was just using the vote thing as an easy example...if not, youre a moron.

michael

[michael1111]

Originally Posted by thewantingseed

Sigh...that post is not even worth debating, I'm sorry.
EDIT: the one before the last one. I'm slow tonight.

this isnt debate, so why say it? seems more like a put down. why not just not debate it instead of trying to make me look stupid. i really bother some of you. you will deny that cuz your ego compels you to, but its true. its TOTALLY obvious. ah well...

michael

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by michael1111

some of your arguments are lame, chuck.

Which ones and why?

you and vm are suppressing freedom of speech by finding the most ludicrous reasons to promote the fact that it doesnt exist really. you are fighting to deny free speech, though im sure you wont see it that way.

Our speech is suppressing the freedom of others to speak? How does that work? How is that even possible? Don't they retain use of their vocal chords? Especially online.

[thewantingseed]

No, I won't deny it.
You are really bothering me right now.

[michael1111]

i mean you have the ability to use vocal chords. as i already admitted- i shouldnt use 'right' with free speech. speech is speech...i guess right just helps me explain it...or maybe not

michael

[michael1111]

Originally Posted by thewantingseed

No, I won't deny it.
You are really bothering me right now.

why? im just stating my pov. you dont have to agree, like i disagree with some of what youre saying, but why am i bothering you?

michael

[michael1111]

well chuck, you and your gang here are saying that freedom of speech does not really exist. i say it does, but it just takes a majority thinking like you to make sure that nobody ever really speaks their minds.

and korea, abusers, murderers...these are your reasons for free speech not being real? how did executions in korea come into play? i guess they shouldnt have opened their big mouths to begin with. but seriously, do you see great global change happening in korea? naw...but i do see it happening the only place it can- within the empire, where you can work the vocal chords all you want.

sing sweet songs, i guess.

michael

[thewantingseed]

You already said that you knew you were bothering me. I simply agreed. You tell me why you said it in the first place, hm?
I'm sorry my arguments are less structured then before, but it is becoming more apparent that you are going to counter every well thought argument with a wild illogical claim, so I'm having a difficult time gathering the effort to bother with presenting a solid point.

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by michael1111

i mean you have the ability to use vocal chords. as i already admitted- i shouldnt use 'right' with free speech. speech is speech...i guess right just helps me explain it...or maybe not

michael

Then let's apply your definition of free speech. On your own website, when you say

This is absolute free speech

, you mean that users may type whatever they please, but they should expect some consequences?

Or when you compare a free forum to a kind of free forum, what do you mean? Do users of one forum not have the ability to type whatever they please and accept the consequences, whereas users of another forum do have the ability to type whatever they please and accept the consequences?

When you say

spam i left at a free thought forum. seems they like to use their ignore feature all the time and ban certain posts. hmmm...doesnt sound free to me!

What doesn't sound 'free'? You were free to type whatever you wanted, and then you were free to accept consequences. How is that not perfect freedom by your definition?

Or further, when you say

been having a grand ol time at a forum i was spamming the web addy at. its a free speech forum that deleted my original post as spam, even though i explained i was just looking for input.

You were free to post it. That's your very definition of freedom of speech.

Right?

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by michael1111

i mean you have the ability to use vocal chords. as i already admitted- i shouldnt use 'right' with free speech. speech is speech...i guess right just helps me explain it...or maybe not

Okay, well, if we go all the way back two hours to the question you initially asked:

Originally Posted by michael1111

if you live somewhere that grants you 'rights', do you really have any?

My answer is still "yes", and I maintain that one example of a right I have been granted (as an American) is the right to speak my mind freely -- on most topics in most situations -- without fear of reprisal from the government. In short, the right to "free speech".

And with that, I'm off to bed.

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by michael1111

well chuck, you and your gang here are saying that freedom of speech does not really exist. i say it does, but it just takes a majority thinking like you to make sure that nobody ever really speaks their minds.

It's nice that you say that, but that doesn't make it less wrong.

and korea, abusers, murderers...these are your reasons for free speech not being real? how did executions in korea come into play? i guess they shouldnt have opened their big mouths to begin with. but seriously, do you see great global change happening in korea? naw...but i do see it happening the only place it can- within the empire, where you can work the vocal chords all you want.

No. North Korea was my disproof of your frankly stupid claim that

Originally Posted by michael1111

you are not denied the right to speak because its something they cant control until after the fact.

[michael1111]

glad you came to visit!

no consequences. the only thing that might get you in trouble is if the forum was flooded. thats something that impedes on others freedom. other than that...no consequences except for what others may reply.

second point- i think using ignore, creating forums to hide debate (yeah yeah...whatever), talking about global ignore...i dont think it promotes freedom. freedom is learning to be tolerant of others and being able to be around what you dont like while still being productive and able to do what you want. thats my definition.

and you can spam something i wrote about this place, but ive said the same types of things about my own sites. ive had so many requests for banning its outrageous. i guess i just posted that cuz it explained my position. awwww...did i hurt your little feelings?

want more fuel for the fire? want more to make fun of me all the time? i see 11:11. i am part of the 11:11 phenomenon. in fact, thats where the first free forum i created was born. www.11-11.tv

[michael1111]

yes, well north korea is an extreme example and im talking to mostly people in the west...lame. your grasping at straws with that one.

and vm- i am saying that you were born to speak, without that right. making speech a right, actually takes it away. but you believe and promote whatever you want. good people can be the worst people going! nite nite

[viscousmemories]

Okay, for some reason I'm not at all tired at 4 am...

Originally Posted by michael1111

and vm- i am saying that you were born to speak, without that right. making speech a right, actually takes it away.

I was also born with the ability to wrap my fingers around someone's throat and choke the life out of them. The fact that I am restricted by law from using my fingers in that fashion is something I can accept. I do not feel that it unfairly restricts my rights.

but you believe and promote whatever you want. good people can be the worst people going! nite nite

Clearly I'll never be as righteous and good as you!