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Old 12-21-2021, 04:17 PM
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Default can we discuss epidemics?

sorry about starting another topic folks, but that other thread went off in too many directions. I have an interest, rather an obsession, with the drug epidemics running rampant to this day in our population. There are many variables, big pharma being one, but also porous borders and the internet at play. can we talk about this?

The U.S. Fentanyl Crisis: What to Know | Council on Foreign Relations

be back later as time permits.
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Old 12-22-2021, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Thanks for the thanks my ff friends but no conversation? I know I tend to get asshole but this really is worth talking about. I’m sitting in a waiting room waiting to get my hair done. Gotta look as pretty as a 55 year old lady can be for Christmas. And as I was shopping right before I got here I was thinking about this topic and was reminded of a young man named Sam. Now I am going out on a limb here. I met Sam in late 2012 when I was in treatment for alcoholism and he was in treatment for drug abuse. He was absolutely hands down the sweetest happiest most honest and gay young man I’d ever met. You could absolutely not love ❤️ him. He was in treatment however for his sixth or seventh time. Anyway we graduated treatment and our patient group kept in touch. He was so funny he signed up for an African American gay website for men and he was whiter than white. He got kicked off. He joked on Facebook about how he was going to sue a GYN surgeon for implanting bad mesh. Funniest friend I had on Facebook hands down. He had relapsed a few times after I was in treatment but had been clean for 8 months when he was found dead in his apartment from an overdose. I KNOW this boy knew he could not shoot up with the same amount of dope as he did 8 months before, he was skilled at being an addict. I KNOW what he got a hold of was either black tar heroine or fentanyl. He was 24 and that is but one reason I am so passionate about this topic
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Old 12-22-2021, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Yeah I had a friend die of opiate OD while overseas. My best guess is something stronger than he expected, but it's also possible he'd been clean for a bit and didn't get the dose right - even experienced addicts can make mistakes. Combination drug use is another possibility - if you have a few drinks, some benzos and then shoot up your much more likely to die. And I can't rule out deliberate OD either. Since this happened in a country with severe penalties for drugs I wonder whether he was with someone who could have called emergency services but who ran out of fear instead.

For these reasons I support legal but well regulated opiates.
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Old 12-22-2021, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

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Originally Posted by fragment View Post
Yeah I had a friend die of opiate OD while overseas. My best guess is something stronger than he expected, but it's also possible he'd been clean for a bit and didn't get the dose right - even experienced addicts can make mistakes. Combination drug use is another possibility - if you have a few drinks, some benzos and then shoot up your much more likely to die. And I can't rule out deliberate OD either. Since this happened in a country with severe penalties for drugs I wonder whether he was with someone who could have called emergency services but who ran out of fear instead.

For these reasons I support legal but well regulated opiates.
Itís so fucking sad tragic and senseless. Sorry for your loss
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Old 12-22-2021, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

It was over 11 years ago, but thanks. Sorry for your loss too. Fucking sucks.
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Old 12-22-2021, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

I watched a guy go floppy and dead fish slide out of his seat on the bus from an OD, to eventually be brought around by Nalaxone by a nice RN riding the bus. I now have some.

I would have more interesting things to say about it but one friend who used to work with the Drug Policy Alliance moved to an AIDS group and I havenít seen the others, so Iím not really up on any of this besides that Fentanyl is both scary and the cops keep trying to freak everyone out with dubious reports of near death experiences by merely being near random white powder.
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Old 12-22-2021, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Ari I highly recommend author Sam Quinious. I don’t know if I spelled his name right but his books Dreamland and Least Among Us are phenomenal and would be well worth anyone’s time. No matter left, right , liberal conservative affiliation. I CANNOT recommend him enough
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Old 12-22-2021, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

The thing with the opioid epidemic is that it's 100% intentional (unlike the covid pandemic which is only due to negligence in being prepared). It's a crime being committed by Big Pharma - and the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma as a whole should all be in jail - right?

But is it mostly a consequence of the (US govt's) neoliberal pursuit of profit and concentration of wealth regardless of who suffers? Or mostly a consequence of (the US govt's) white supremacist tendencies (anything is OK as long as non-whites suffer)? Or an even balance of the two?

Exhibit: the war on drugs (winners: drugs and Big Pharma; loser: minorities)

Exhibit: the rate of incarceration in the US / "fighting crime" (winners: crime and private prisons, loser: minorities)
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Old 12-22-2021, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
The thing with the opioid epidemic is that it's 100% intentional (unlike the covid pandemic which is only due to negligence in being prepared). It's a crime being committed by Big Pharma - and the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma as a whole should all be in jail - right?

But is it mostly a consequence of the (US govt's) neoliberal pursuit of profit and concentration of wealth regardless of who suffers? Or mostly a consequence of (the US govt's) white supremacist tendencies (anything is OK as long as non-whites suffer)? Or an even balance of the two?

Exhibit: the war on drugs (winners: drugs and Big Pharma; loser: minorities)

Exhibit: the rate of incarceration in the US / "fighting crime" (winners: crime and private prisons, loser: minorities)
joe. I have some thoughts on this matter but am at work very busy taking care of sick babies . Iíll be back later after my shift
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Old 12-22-2021, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
The thing with the opioid epidemic is that it's 100% intentional (unlike the covid pandemic which is only due to negligence in being prepared). It's a crime being committed by Big Pharma - and the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma as a whole should all be in jail - right?

But is it mostly a consequence of the (US govt's) neoliberal pursuit of profit and concentration of wealth regardless of who suffers? Or mostly a consequence of (the US govt's) white supremacist tendencies (anything is OK as long as non-whites suffer)? Or an even balance of the two?

Exhibit: the war on drugs (winners: drugs and Big Pharma; loser: minorities)

Exhibit: the rate of incarceration in the US / "fighting crime" (winners: crime and private prisons, loser: minorities)
The only reason that it's acknowledged as an epidemic/crisis is that it started affecting white people in sufficient numbers. Sacklers found a way to monetize despair, but started parasitizing white populations, too. That's when the crisis came about.
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Old 12-22-2021, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

The Purdue Pharma/Sackler shittery is top notch outrage porn. Long about the mid 90s, they used a decades-old marketing strategy developed by Arthur Sacker to woo doctors into massively upping their willingness to prescribe OxyContin. Salespeople no longer needed a medical or scientific background. Any fashion design school graduate would do so long as s/he was sufficiently aggressive in applying Purdue sales techniques.

Oxy being addictive as fuck, lots of patients got addicted. When docs with a functioning moral compass expressed concern, their Purdue sales reps trotted out the ludicrous company line of pseudoaddiction. Sure these patients look addicted and engage in the same drug-seeking behaviors as addicts, but they're not really addicted. The problem, ya see, is that their pain is insufficiently controlled. The solution, ya see, is to prescribe them more Oxy.

When law enforcement shut down the most egregious pill mills and locked up the most verminesque docs, that left a fuckton of junkies without access to their drugs of choice. Advice from other junkies tended toward stuff like, "What the fuck is wrong with you? Use heroin. It's cheaper and easier to obtain."

So, then, other than the inconvenient fact of heroin's illegality, everything old was new again. In the early 20th Century, heroin was seen as a "wonder drug" that did everything morphine could do without the side effects.

Meanwhile, the addiction resulting from all the "legal" painkillers cost state and local governments billions. Law enforcement, courts, public hospitals, foster care, social services programs . . . shit adds up fast. The biggest lawsuits against Purdue were those brought by governments.

From the user standpoint, the fundamental truths are:

- Throughout recorded human history, and likely way before that, people have sought out ways to alter consciousness chemically.

- Some will invariably become addicted to their consciousness-altering chemical of choice, resulting in misery for the addict, family and friends as well as considerable expense to society.

- As long as there's a demand, and there will always be a demand, there will be those willing to supply.

- Absent an above-board regulation process, there is no way the end user knows with any degree of certainty that they're getting what they think they're getting.

The fentanyl-laced shit coming from Mexico, along with home-grown sellers who cut heroin and other drugs with fentanyl to stretch supply and create addicted customers, ramps shit up substantially. The Biden administration wants an amendment to the Controlled Substances Act to put fentanyl-related compounds on Schedule 1 permanently, but there's not much (if any) reason to believe that would do anything. People in illegal drug trades, from Mexican cartel kingpins all the way down, live with the very real possibility of execution every day of their lives. And their execution methods tend to be substantially less "genteel" than ours.

Interdiction is, as always, largely a joke. By all accounts, it's never been easier to get unlawful drugs into the U.S. And, in the final analysis, incarceration and shutting off foreign supplies does nothing whatsoever for addicts.

So maybe we're left with trying to help addicts on an individual basis. I'm an alcoholic (sober since Dec. 1983, thankfully enough) who sobered up and had his life saved and turned into something worthwhile through AA, so I have personal knowledge regarding the effectiveness of ex-drunks showing current drunks the way out of hell.

As an active drunk, I also gained a lot of first-hand experience with doing the exact same idiotic shit over and over while bullshitting myself into believing this time the result will be different. That mindset is more dangerous for junkies, whose illegal morphine might actually be morphine laced with enough fentanyl to kill the user.

So yeah, I don't have anything worthwhile to add, except maybe to confirm Miss Shelby's statement that Sam Quinones's books on this subject are top-notch.
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  #12  
Old 12-23-2021, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
The thing with the opioid epidemic is that it's 100% intentional (unlike the covid pandemic which is only due to negligence in being prepared). It's a crime being committed by Big Pharma - and the Sackler family and Purdue Pharma as a whole should all be in jail - right?

But is it mostly a consequence of the (US govt's) neoliberal pursuit of profit and concentration of wealth regardless of who suffers? Or mostly a consequence of (the US govt's) white supremacist tendencies (anything is OK as long as non-whites suffer)? Or an even balance of the two?

Exhibit: the war on drugs (winners: drugs and Big Pharma; loser: minorities)

Exhibit: the rate of incarceration in the US / "fighting crime" (winners: crime and private prisons, loser: minorities)
The only reason that it's acknowledged as an epidemic/crisis is that it started affecting white people in sufficient numbers. Sacklers found a way to monetize despair, but started parasitizing white populations, too. That's when the crisis came about.
While I am not denying this I’d like to point out that while the crack epidemic was gaining speed and it was considered a minority epidemic, at the same time middle class whites overdosing and dying from heroin and because of shame the families didn’t admit as much. Their obituaries were about the GOOD things about them. Not like my friend Sam’s. His dad was be open about the dangers of drugs. But this was not on law enforcements radar for a long time because there were sophisticated dealings in place where Mexicans from Rancheros would come up and set up delivery systems. This worked for middle class addicts cause they didn’t want to go to some seedy dope house for their smack. Not only that these Mexican dealers were friendly and and actually made friends with their clients. Then about every three months they’d go back to Mexico and another crew would be sent up. They wanted to go back to their villages with money and clout. That’s a lot harder for law enforcement to detect than dealers hanging out on street corners.
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Old 12-23-2021, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
The Purdue Pharma/Sackler shittery is top notch outrage porn. Long about the mid 90s, they used a decades-old marketing strategy developed by Arthur Sacker to woo doctors into massively upping their willingness to prescribe OxyContin. Salespeople no longer needed a medical or scientific background. Any fashion design school graduate would do so long as s/he was sufficiently aggressive in applying Purdue sales techniques.

Oxy being addictive as fuck, lots of patients got addicted. When docs with a functioning moral compass expressed concern, their Purdue sales reps trotted out the ludicrous company line of pseudoaddiction. Sure these patients look addicted and engage in the same drug-seeking behaviors as addicts, but they're not really addicted. The problem, ya see, is that their pain is insufficiently controlled. The solution, ya see, is to prescribe them more Oxy.

When law enforcement shut down the most egregious pill mills and locked up the most verminesque docs, that left a fuckton of junkies without access to their drugs of choice. Advice from other junkies tended toward stuff like, "What the fuck is wrong with you? Use heroin. It's cheaper and easier to obtain."

So, then, other than the inconvenient fact of heroin's illegality, everything old was new again. In the early 20th Century, heroin was seen as a "wonder drug" that did everything morphine could do without the side effects.

Meanwhile, the addiction resulting from all the "legal" painkillers cost state and local governments billions. Law enforcement, courts, public hospitals, foster care, social services programs . . . shit adds up fast. The biggest lawsuits against Purdue were those brought by governments.

From the user standpoint, the fundamental truths are:

- Throughout recorded human history, and likely way before that, people have sought out ways to alter consciousness chemically.

- Some will invariably become addicted to their consciousness-altering chemical of choice, resulting in misery for the addict, family and friends as well as considerable expense to society.

- As long as there's a demand, and there will always be a demand, there will be those willing to supply.

- Absent an above-board regulation process, there is no way the end user knows with any degree of certainty that they're getting what they think they're getting.

The fentanyl-laced shit coming from Mexico, along with home-grown sellers who cut heroin and other drugs with fentanyl to stretch supply and create addicted customers, ramps shit up substantially. The Biden administration wants an amendment to the Controlled Substances Act to put fentanyl-related compounds on Schedule 1 permanently, but there's not much (if any) reason to believe that would do anything. People in illegal drug trades, from Mexican cartel kingpins all the way down, live with the very real possibility of execution every day of their lives. And their execution methods tend to be substantially less "genteel" than ours.

Interdiction is, as always, largely a joke. By all accounts, it's never been easier to get unlawful drugs into the U.S. And, in the final analysis, incarceration and shutting off foreign supplies does nothing whatsoever for addicts.

So maybe we're left with trying to help addicts on an individual basis. I'm an alcoholic (sober since Dec. 1983, thankfully enough) who sobered up and had his life saved and turned into something worthwhile through AA, so I have personal knowledge regarding the effectiveness of ex-drunks showing current drunks the way out of hell.

As an active drunk, I also gained a lot of first-hand experience with doing the exact same idiotic shit over and over while bullshitting myself into believing this time the result will be different. That mindset is more dangerous for junkies, whose illegal morphine might actually be morphine laced with enough fentanyl to kill the user.

So yeah, I don't have anything worthwhile to add, except maybe to confirm Miss Shelby's statement that Sam Quinones's books on this subject are top-notch.
Nothing worthwhile to add? Matlock, I think I'm in love.
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Old 12-23-2021, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

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Nothing worthwhile to add? Matlock, I think I'm in love.
Hands off, he's mine.
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Old 12-23-2021, 05:38 PM
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:pibble:
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Old 12-23-2021, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
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Nothing worthwhile to add? Matlock, I think I'm in love.
Hands off, he's mine.
Sharing is caring, Joe.
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Old 12-23-2021, 10:43 PM
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Sharing is caring, Joe.
Except with fentanyl laced coke.
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Old 12-23-2021, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

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So maybe we're left with trying to help addicts on an individual basis.
While thereís a lot to reply to there and Iíve probably complained about this before. Trytamines, like the schedule 1 ĎNo good use and a danger to societyí psilocybin are showing great effectiveness at curing addictions through editing loops and cycles in a personís brain.

As itís schedule 1, a lot of this research and governmental paperwork is being done under the presumption that they will eventually have the only legal prescription treatment which can be sold at several thousands a pop. So that only those with enough money, or happy to be indebted to their insurance company get access to a treatment whoís cost is entirely dependent on the government making the substance illegal in the first place.
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Old 12-24-2021, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Ari that is satisfyingly informative and I agree wholeheartedly. Where I reserve the right to (mildly) put it is that there is a way for tons of people not to become addicted in the first place. One of MANY things but I believe we HAVE to start talking about the Mexican American border. Big pharma, the drugs coming from the South and the internet all created a perfect storm. And while I admire the author of the books I recommend, I think he should place the same amount of passion as he does on hope for recovery of addicts on sealing our southern borders. It IS a large part of the problem.
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Old 12-25-2021, 02:22 AM
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Accordning to my detox working friends and colleagues. Fentynal is coming from Chinese labs. It'a a cheap way to get someone thinking they have the real thing, but is not. There are a lot of different drugs added to drugs that we call "fentynal" the spasms and seizures are a sign. I've heard of patients borrowing a prozac from someone, because their prescription ran out, and OD'ing on fentynal instead
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Old 01-03-2022, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Record fentanyl seizures at border contributed to soaring overdose deaths in US | Washington Examiner
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

So ... they should stopped seizing it ... problem solved?
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Fentynal kills drug sniffer dogs, that's how deadly it is.
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
So ... they should stopped seizing it ... problem solved?
Seizing it causes overdoses?

Then again, Jello Biafra did a song about it in checks notes 1989-90.
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Old 01-04-2022, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: can we discuss epidemics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
So ... they should stopped seizing it ... problem solved?
I think you know where Iím going with this. If the Southern border was locked down and made secure a lot of addictions and deaths could very well be prevented. I get China is a problem too. I think more cyber security is necessary there. When dealers, nice hearted well meaning and friendly dealers can enter easily from the South, well thatís evil in motion. REAL evil presents itself in an attractive way. I do not necessarily think every dealer that comes up through Mexico has evil intentions, theyíre looking for respect from families back home if they can bring back money and a better life. But many of them want that life I Mexico. I think design of it all is evil and very easily orchestrated by the father of evil himself. My belief system differs from those here but I do believe there is a bigger picture and would welcome some open minds on the matter.
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