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  #226  
Old 05-03-2024, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu View Post
Quote:
The more the left keeps advocating, supporting and funding crazy shit, like what is going on at Columbia— the more middle grounders will shift to the right. So conservatives are sitting back expecting nothing more from the left knowing they are digging their own graves.

I’m not going to support Israeli genociding Palestinians because I think it’s a good pr move.

Personally, I refuse to give a shit about the pro-genocide caucus feels.

I’m also not sure that your claims are descriptions of reality or what you hope is true.
Were YOU there, bey? Do you know what is true? Were you alive when our country was attacked by terrorists? These are the same people PROUDLY attacking and declaring war on Israel? And for what? Land?

You know I really highly suspect the originator of this thread is a tenured college professor. I can’t fathom ANY adult my age play into the antics of these ignorant aimless not ready for the real world BABIES who just need a good ASS whopping and to sent to bed with no supper.

The only tiny solace I can take is that this is only happening in college and once these students have to be pull their heads from their asses and live in the real world, they will I understand the errors of their ways and send ALL of their firstborn children to grow up in monasteries as a repentance.
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  #227  
Old 05-03-2024, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

As far as I can tell, people that conservatives already hate and would never speak to, occupied private property that conservatives don't own and used their speech that conservatives say is free to trigger conservatives; but conservatives love messy drama and being triggered, so they're eating it up.
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  #228  
Old 05-03-2024, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
As far as I can tell, people that conservatives already hate and would never speak to, occupied private property that conservatives don't own and used their speech that conservatives say is free to trigger conservatives; but conservatives love messy drama and being triggered, so they're eating it up.
Can you translate that into English please? Just say what you’re saying.
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  #229  
Old 05-03-2024, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Conservatives being up in arms about speech on a campus they would never attend is pure drama queen center of the universe behavior.

If I believed in conspiracies at every turn I would presume it's being played up to hide the fact Russian owned Marjorie is actively trying to drive out a conservative christian dream of a House speaker purely because he supported Ukraine.
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  #230  
Old 05-03-2024, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Oh yes, Ari, and these paranoid conservatives have been around since the 60s ?

And they have no ground to stand on, since, notoriously, college education has been largely influenced by liberal professors who have NO idea how to conduct themselves in the actual real world. Gotcha. It’s conservative conspiracies that colleges are breeding grounds for liberals whose students largely show up ignorant of anything.
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  #231  
Old 05-04-2024, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

lol ignorance
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  #232  
Old 05-04-2024, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shelby View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu View Post
Quote:
The more the left keeps advocating, supporting and funding crazy shit, like what is going on at Columbia— the more middle grounders will shift to the right. So conservatives are sitting back expecting nothing more from the left knowing they are digging their own graves.

I’m not going to support Israeli genociding Palestinians because I think it’s a good pr move.

Personally, I refuse to give a shit about the pro-genocide caucus feels.

I’m also not sure that your claims are descriptions of reality or what you hope is true.
Were YOU there, bey?
No, but I was responding to you who also weren't there. It sure is funny that I had to be at all the protests to have an opinion about your opinion of the protests

Quote:
Do you know what is true? Were you alive when our country was attacked by terrorists?
Do you mean the Oklahoma City bombing or like the boogaloo bois during the BLM protests or the January 6th insurrection? Because yeah.

But also, you’ve known that I was an adult for about a decade. Do some math. I announced my engagement to ES on this forum 14 years ago. Unless I was getting married at 10, I was indeed alive for September 11th.

I’m not sure what being alive for September 11th has to do with Israeli apartheid and genocide though, except you somehow think that mostly Saudi Arabia hijackers flying plains into the World Trade Center means that we shouldnt care about different Muslims being genocided now.




Quote:
These are the same people PROUDLY attacking and declaring war on Israel? And for what? Land?
This is pretty hilariously wrong. Israel fought a war and took the West Bank and Gaza by conquest and then has occupied it for decades.

Quote:
You know I really highly suspect the originator of this thread is a tenured college professor.
Sure, youre conservative and view college as a great evil indoctrinating factory.

Quote:
I can’t fathom ANY adult my age play into the antics of these ignorant aimless not ready for the real world BABIES who just need a good ASS whopping and to sent to bed with no supper.
Some of us care about the tens of thousands of women and children and fucking aid workers being murdered by Israel with weapons paid for by the US.

But it is funny that you think the students need corporal punishment. Reasoning with people isn’t something you consider.

Quote:
The only tiny solace I can take is that this is only happening in college and once these students have to be pull their heads from their asses and live in the real world, they will I understand the errors of their ways and send ALL of their firstborn children to grow up in monasteries as a repentance.
This is about as realistic as your other fevered imaginings.
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Last edited by beyelzu; 05-05-2024 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Edited to fix a word
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  #233  
Old 05-05-2024, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Then there’s the Onion. Advisors Assure Biden This Will Blow Over Once All Gazans Dead
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  #234  
Old 05-06-2024, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shelby View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu View Post
Quote:
The more the left keeps advocating, supporting and funding crazy shit, like what is going on at Columbia— the more middle grounders will shift to the right. So conservatives are sitting back expecting nothing more from the left knowing they are digging their own graves.

I’m not going to support Israeli genociding Palestinians because I think it’s a good pr move.

Personally, I refuse to give a shit about the pro-genocide caucus feels.

I’m also not sure that your claims are descriptions of reality or what you hope is true.
Were YOU there, bey?
No, but I was responding to you who also weren't there. It sure is funny that I had to be at all the protests to have an opinion about your opinion of the protests

Quote:
Do you know what is true? Were you alive when our country was attacked by terrorists?
Do you mean the Oklahoma City bombing or like the boogaloo bois during the BLM protests or the January 6th insurrection? Because yeah.

But also, you’ve known that I was an adult for about a decade. Do some math. I announced my engagement to ES on this forum 14 years ago. Unless I was getting married at 10, I was indeed alive for September 11th.

I’m not sure what being alive for September 11th has to do with Israeli apartheid and genocide though, except you somehow think that mostly Saudi Arabia hijackers flying plains into the World Trade Center means that we shouldnt care about different Muslims being genocided now.




Quote:
These are the same people PROUDLY attacking and declaring war on Israel? And for what? Land?
This is pretty hilariously wrong. Israel fought a war and took the West Bank and Gaza by conquest and then has occupied it for decades.

Quote:
You know I really highly suspect the originator of this thread is a tenured college professor.
Sure, youre conservative and view college as a great evil indoctrinating factory.

Quote:
I can’t fathom ANY adult my age play into the antics of these ignorant aimless not ready for the real world BABIES who just need a good ASS whopping and to sent to bed with no supper.
Some of us care about the tens of thousands of women and children and fucking aid workers being murdered by Israel with weapons paid for by the US.

But it is funny that you think the students need corporal punishment. Reasoning with people isn’t something you consider.

Quote:
The only tiny solace I can take is that this is only happening in college and once these students have to be pull their heads from their asses and live in the real world, they will I understand the errors of their ways and send ALL of their firstborn children to grow up in monasteries as a repentance.
This is about as realistic as your other fevered imaginings.
Ok. Bey. We know where we stand.
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  #235  
Old 05-06-2024, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Yep.

FWIW, I like you personally even if I find some of your positions detached from reality and abhorrent.

But we do know where we stand.
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  #236  
Old 05-06-2024, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shelby View Post

Ok. Bey. We know where we stand.
Can’t be arsed to respond to the way he effortlessly demolished your febrile rants, eh?
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  #237  
Old 05-22-2024, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

1.
South Africa accuses Israel of genocide, at the International Court of Justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel
completely divorced from facts and circumstances [...] makes a mockery of the heinous charge of genocide
2.
An International Criminal Court prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Hamas leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netanyahu
I reject with disgust the comparison of the prosecutor in the Hague between democratic Israel and the mass murderers of Hamas.
With what audacity do you compare Hamas that murdered, burned, butchered, decapitated, raped and kidnapped our brothers and sisters, and the IDF soldiers fighting a just war.
It should be noted that lots of other pols objected to the apparent equivalence, which does seem to be an interesting choice by the prosecutor.

3.
Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognize a Palestinian state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel
an “immediate recall” of ambassadors ... this “distorted step” ... “Israel will not remain silent—there will be further severe consequences” (on Norway, Ireland and Spain)
I'm beginning to sense a pattern here. None of these moves may get anywhere or have any direct effect, but they do draw angry responses from Netanyahu and his lackeys. I'm beginning to think this is the point. Governments and international bodies: "what can we do next to rile up this lunatic?"
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  #238  
Old 05-22-2024, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
It should be noted that lots of other pols objected to the apparent equivalence, which does seem to be an interesting choice by the prosecutor.
Seems like the other option was to announce the warrant applications separated by some period of time and be criticised for bias. As written in the prosecutor's statement, "if we do not demonstrate our willingness to apply the law equally, if it is seen as being applied selectively, we will be creating the conditions for its collapse".

This supposed equivalence is just a talking point for those who want to excuse or minimise their preferred side's atrocities, the charges are different and seem broadly in keeping with what we've all seen reported.
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  #239  
Old 05-23-2024, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

I talk a little about the request for warrants in my latest Substack post, in which I also reference this very good analysis by Ali Abunimah over at the Electronic Intifada.

I was pleasantly surprised to read that Germany has stated they will arrest Netanyahu and Gallant if warrants are issued and they visit Germany given how cucked Germany is by Israel. To paraphrase lawyer Dianna Buttu, "After WWII Germany learned the rule (defend Israel) but not the principle (stop genocide)."
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  #240  
Old 05-29-2024, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

I haven't read it, but Ed Yong in his latest newsletter talks about the book which won the Pulitzer Prize:

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On May 6, along with the rest of the world, I learned that the Board did indeed award the Pulitzer to one of our three picks—A Day in the Life of Abed Salama, by Nathan Thrall. I read the book somewhere towards the end of the judging process and despite my flagging stamina, I devoured it in less than 48 hours. I cried after finishing it. And I cried again when I learned that Thrall had won.

In his book, the eponymous protagonist Abed Salama learns that the school bus carrying his five-year-old son, Milad, has crashed in the outskirts of Jerusalem. As Salama tries to find his son, he is stymied at every turn because he is Palestinian. In recounting this desperate quest, Thrall, who is a Jewish American journalist based in Jerusalem, offers an incredibly intimate portrait of life under occupation, and the challenges that Palestinians face during both the mundanities of daily life and the heightened moments of tragedy. Palestinians are often pinioned between two opposing but equally harmful tendencies: to turn them into abstractions on a political stage, or to turn away from them because what they’re enduring is too horrendous to truly grapple with. ADITLOAS felt to me like an antidote to both poisons. [...]
Seems interesting, and very personal. I wonder if I could actually handle reading it.

Yong also pointed out this link 40 Books to Understand Palestine
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  #241  
Old 06-04-2024, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Beating a dead horse, but...

This is precisely why Trump's personal feelings barely matter. He maybe personally doesn't care about Israel-Palestine, but he does care about money for Trump. And the thing is, while the Saudis or the Qataris or Emiratis would surely be willing to bribe Trump to help Palestine with some amount of money, Palestine is not their top priority. The fucks who brutalize their own people/migrant workers or dismember journalists may be less than sincere in their commitment to human rights! Their top priority is themselves, they're not going to spend as much money on Palestine. The other thing is that Trump knows such a thing would be valuable, and it would cost him a lot of valuable support, such as Adelson's, and it would be riskier if it were too blatant, so he would want a LOT of money for it but the more money the more risk too. It's possible that there's no amount they'd be willing to pay that would work for Trump and so fantasies about Arab dictators bribing Trump to side with Palestine are likely to remain fantasies.

(And that's leaving aside people like Jared Kushner who are tight in the Trump orbit and very pro-Israel. Who somehow got $2 billion from the Saudis without it stopping him from suggesting to move all Gazans into the desert and redevelop that valuable beachfront property. I'm guessing no Palestine-related strings were attached to that $2b.)


So it's no surprise that Arab Muslim Americans meeting to hear Trump's pitch found out that the Trump people have no intention of giving them what they want:
"Like a Lead Balloon": Trump's "Shadow Secretary of State" Meets With Arab American Leaders - NOTUS (Allbritton Journalism Institute)
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  #242  
Old 06-05-2024, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

It also occurs to me that one of the biggest motivators for the contemporary GOP is "owning the libs" (and by that they mean liberals and leftists).

And while Trump negotiating a real two-state solution would certainly own some libs, by creating a situation where anti-establishment leftists could lord this over more establishment-minded liberals/leftists, you can't really say it would own the libs nearly as much as Israel annexing the West Bank with the US's support.
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  #243  
Old 06-05-2024, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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  #244  
Old 06-18-2024, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Israeli military knew of Hamas's October 7 plans before terror attack - The Jerusalem Post
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  #245  
Old 06-18-2024, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Now add in the report that Israel was funding Hamas, already in this thread I think, and take the next step: the Oct 7th attack was what Netanyahoo wanted.
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  #246  
Old 06-25-2024, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Put up or shut up, chickenhawks
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  #247  
Old 07-04-2024, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

I just re-read this whole thread, and my perspective has changed a little after nine months of reading, writing, watching, and talking about this issue.

I'll start by saying if I were writing the OP today it would be largely the same as it is now, but I would remove or modify these phrases:

1. "terrorist attack"
2. "Hamas is a terrorist organization"
3. "murdered about 1300 people in Israel"
4. "condemn terrorism"

I would not use the words 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' today because they are imprecise and misleading. Hamas is a political organization first and foremost. To the extent there was any administrative state in Gaza it consisted of members of Hamas. I would also avoid using the word 'murder' to describe all the killings. Palestinians have a right, under international law, to resist occupation--even using armed struggle--and according to a recent report 379 out of 1189 killed on October 7th were security forces. If armed resistance is legal, then I think it's inaccurate to say these soldiers were 'murdered'. I do believe the civilians were murdered.

Remember all the debate about who was responsible for the bombing of Al-Alhi hospital on October 17th? It was a big deal because the world refused to believe Israel would go so far as to bomb a hospital. I think the jury is still out but maybe that incident was friendly fire, in any case the most recent report from the WHO shows just how much destruction Israel has done to healthcare in Gaza since then.

There was some "both sides are guilty" rhetoric in this thread and I just completely reject that now. If an 800 pound gorilla has its foot on someone's neck as they periodically pummel them and that person occasionally lands a solid punch to the gorilla's shin, they don't share equal blame for the violence.

Ari asked (I think facetiously) "Are you now in support of other countries joining in the fight to remove Israel and return the land to Arab rule?" At the time I wasn't, but now? Now let me quote Israeli historian Ilan Pappé: "Hope for me is the end of Israel and the creation of a free Palestine from the river to the sea." That being said I believe a single (truly) democratic state is the desirable alternative.

It is popular to suggest that Netanyahu is the problem, or maybe even the whole government, but few want to acknowledge that there is a deep, fascistic rot throughout Israeli society. My feed is FULL of videos of Israeli soliders and civilians behaving horrifically. Also, there's this:

pg_2024.05.30_israeli-views-war_0_01.png

My education and advocacy has consisted of working full-time at techforpalestine.org, writing on Substack, posting and re-posting content on social media, and reading, watching, and listening to a LOT of content. I also attended the three-day People's Conference for Palestine in Detroit, the highlight of which was getting to meet Vijay Prashad and tell him how much I loved "Letters to Palestine". Oh, and I am in an online book club reading "Ten Myths About Israel", by Ilan Pappé.

Here is a very incomplete summary of content I've consumed (and recommend):

Books I've Read
  • A Hundred Years War On Palestine, Rashid Khalidi
  • On Palestine, by Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappe
  • The Israel Lobby: and US Foreign Policy, by John J. Mearsheimer & Stephen Walt
  • All The Shah's Men: An American coup and the roots of Middle East terror, by Stephen Kinzer
  • My Name Is Rachel Corrie, by Alan Rickman
  • The Question of Palestine, by Edward Said
  • Deluge: Gaza and Israel from Crisis to Cataclysm, edited by Jamie Stern-Weiner
  • Letters to Palestine: Writers Respond to War and Occupation, edited by Vijay Prashad
  • Beyond Tribal Loyalties, edited by Avigail Abarbanel
  • Ten Myths About Israel, by Ilan Pappé

Documentary films I've watched
  • Israelism
  • Gaza Fights for Freedom
  • Where Olive Trees Weep
  • A World Not Ours
  • "The Lobby" - 4 part series on Aljazeera
  • Witchhunt
  • Soldier On The Roof
  • Skies Above Hebron
  • The Great Book Robbery

Interesting Reports & Statements
  • Service in Dissent - joint statement of 12 US Government officials who have resigned in protest of Gaza policy
  • Anatomy of a Genocide - Very detailed analysis from UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese
  • UN's detailed findings on events of Oct 7
  • Children and Armed Conflict Report - Many years too late, Israel has finally been added to this annually released "blacklist" for its crimes against children. "In Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory, the Israeli armed and security forces have been listed for the killing and maiming of children, and for attacks on schools and hospitals."
  • Bearing Witness to the Israel-Gaza War, by Dr. Lee Mordechai, Byzantine Environmental Historian at Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote this 92 page report (with over 1150 footnotes) cataloging what he describes as a genocide.
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  #248  
Old 07-04-2024, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Authorities recently approved the appropriation of nearly 5 square miles of land in the Jordan Valley.
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  #249  
Old 07-09-2024, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
There was some "both sides are guilty" rhetoric in this thread and I just completely reject that now. If an 800 pound gorilla has its foot on someone's neck as they periodically pummel them and that person occasionally lands a solid punch to the gorilla's shin, they don't share equal blame for the violence.
While I think it's reasonable to say that the two sides are not equally blameworthy, I don't think it is reasonable or even necessarily helpful to the cause of the Palestinian people to absolve Hamas of guilt.

There are people in Hamas who want to ethnically/religiously cleanse Israel/Palestine of Jews. There are some of them who think that this is a realistic goal and that, in fact, they are closer now to achieving it than they were before. Aside from the more violent fantasies about it, a lot of them think that Israelis will simply pack up and "go back to Europe and New York" or whatever if things become unpleasant enough (to use a Romney-ism, they'll "self-deport"), despite the fact that most Israeli Jews were 1. born in Israel and 2. have roots in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority areas like the Caucasus and thus 3. don't think they have anywhere to escape to in the first place.

That those Hamas members' have legitimate grievances doesn't mean we should excuse them for having curdled into that.
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Ari asked (I think facetiously) "Are you now in support of other countries joining in the fight to remove Israel and return the land to Arab rule?" At the time I wasn't, but now? Now let me quote Israeli historian Ilan Pappé: "Hope for me is the end of Israel and the creation of a free Palestine from the river to the sea." That being said I believe a single (truly) democratic state is the desirable alternative.
For example, quite a few of the leaders of Hamas could never really be considered as plausible leaders for a truly democratic single I-P state, at least not without significant rehabilitation. It's just not plausible to say that Israeli Jews should ever accept Sinwar as a prime minister, even if, at the same time, you could say the same thing for Netanyahu.

Unfortunately, while I certainly agree that it would be a sensible solution, as an atheist committed to the principles of separation of church and state, to have a secular state with no special privileges for either group (at least outside of certain holy sites, maybe), it doesn't seem that either side is that interested in the idea...

IMO, it would be to the US's benefit to simply be less involved in general. Since we give more money to Israel than we give to Palestine, that would effectively be "damaging" to Israel, but my goal would not be to use the aid as leverage but to simply disentangle ourselves from it.

It's a largely intractable problem with significant religious motivations on both sides. It seems like it causes the US lots of problems and we don't seem any closer to a solution. And importantly, for the Democrats, it causes them more problems than it causes the Republicans at this point, and their leader openly spits in the face of Democratic presidents.

I don't know that that's smart electoral politics (many Americans want the US to take sides). And there could be some hidden value (Israeli intelligence cooperation) that provides the US gov't with some less visible motivation to maintain the relationship, but I doubt it's enough to make it worth it.
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It is popular to suggest that Netanyahu is the problem, or maybe even the whole government, but few want to acknowledge that there is a deep, fascistic rot throughout Israeli society. My feed is FULL of videos of Israeli soliders and civilians behaving horrifically.
Now this, I became aware of the demographic trends in Israel some years back and I've basically been thinking there would be something like Gaza or worse eventually, as the more right-wing elements keep growing...
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  #250  
Old 07-10-2024, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
While I think it's reasonable to say that the two sides are not equally blameworthy, I don't think it is reasonable or even necessarily helpful to the cause of the Palestinian people to absolve Hamas of guilt.
I don't mean to absolve them of guilt, but the imbalance in degree of guilt is dramatic. What did Hamas do? We're not entirely certain but we know it pales in comparison. Killing civilians and taking hostages are both considered 'war crimes' according to international law, but there is good reason to believe their plan of attack on October 7th was directed at the Israeli security forces, and that the civilians who were killed were "collateral damage". Clearly they planned to take hostages, which is recognized as a war crime, but they did so with the hope of exchanging them for Palestinian prisoners in Israel, many of whom are held under "administrative detention" without charges, sometimes for years. In other words, hostages.

Quote:
There are people in Hamas who want to ethnically/religiously cleanse Israel/Palestine of Jews. There are some of them who think that this is a realistic goal and that, in fact, they are closer now to achieving it than they were before. Aside from the more violent fantasies about it, a lot of them think that Israelis will simply pack up and "go back to Europe and New York" or whatever if things become unpleasant enough (to use a Romney-ism, they'll "self-deport"), despite the fact that most Israeli Jews were 1. born in Israel and 2. have roots in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority areas like the Caucasus and thus 3. don't think they have anywhere to escape to in the first place.

That those Hamas members' have legitimate grievances doesn't mean we should excuse them for having curdled into that.
This seems irrelevant to the question of Hamas' blameworthiness for the events of October 7th, and even if it's true that most Israeli Jews were born in Israel it is because their parents or grandparents were settlers. Before 1948 the Jewish population was a fraction of its current size. In any case I think too much weight is given to this narrative. There are many alternatives to apartheid and ethnic cleansing that don't amount to expelling all the Jews from Palestine.

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For example, quite a few of the leaders of Hamas could never really be considered as plausible leaders for a truly democratic single I-P state, at least not without significant rehabilitation. It's just not plausible to say that Israeli Jews should ever accept Sinwar as a prime minister, even if, at the same time, you could say the same thing for Netanyahu.
Yeah, Netanyahu has a lot more blood on his hands than Sinwar. I agree it would be a hard sell to the Israelis though. But they managed to work with Arafat back in the day.

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Unfortunately, while I certainly agree that it would be a sensible solution, as an atheist committed to the principles of separation of church and state, to have a secular state with no special privileges for either group (at least outside of certain holy sites, maybe), it doesn't seem that either side is that interested in the idea...
I actually don't think that's true. I think there are a lot of people on both sides who would support a secular, pluralistic democracy, but playing up the religious extremism on both sides serves the interests of those players who benefit from the perception of the situation as intractable.

Quote:
IMO, it would be to the US's benefit to simply be less involved in general. Since we give more money to Israel than we give to Palestine, that would effectively be "damaging" to Israel, but my goal would not be to use the aid as leverage but to simply disentangle ourselves from it.
Hard agree.
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