Fucking education! How does it work?

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

TLR, are your senior admins academics, or leadery leaders from the bid'ness world?

The latter. Neither the President nor the Dean has ever taught at the college level.

In one of the more recent college addresses, he actually said that he wants to use the University of Phoenix as his model for how the school should be operated.

[Dingfod]

O crap. My wife found out the hard way, that the very expensive Business degree from University of Phoenix is virtually worthless, hardly any employers respect it. They're accredited by exactly one 19-state regional accrediting organization, the Chicago-based Higher Learning Commission, no national accreditation. Their accreditation with that one organization was just extended on the conditions that they make improvements in the next two years. They were extended though, which means UoP continues to make 80% of their revenues from student loans and grants. That is a shitty model.

Edit: She worked very hard for that degree too. She learned a lot. Too bad it gets no respect. Too bad it's for profit.

Edit2: I looked, my collegiate alma mater is accredited by the HLC too! Yippee! I never finished a degree there or anywhere though.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

The latter. Neither the President nor the Dean has ever taught at the college level.

Not surprised, from what you'd said earlier.

Increasingly I am coming to believe that the fundamental feature of universities is collegial governance. Everything else special about them flows from collegial governance. And in my experience that's the thing that most boggles the minds of non-academics who get inserted into academic leadership. They stare at you like you're a hobbit talking about tilling the good black earth when you explain how collegial governance works. At most they will see the processes as problems they have to work around and defeat rather than actual governance mechanisms. Of course former professors can be terrible academic leaders -- Larry Summers, anyone? -- but at least they understand how a university works.

Academics have done this to themselves, academy-wide, by seeing academic service as an unwelcome burden rather than as the guarantor of the whole system. Over the past couple decades we've had to fight to convince junior faculty, fresh from their research-research-research PhD, that teaching is a key component of the job, not a necessary evil to justify their research time. The next battle will be service, if we don't want every university to be a shitty corporate environment. Thus far we've been actively seeking or passively accepting a cadre of professional business managers to run universities and colleges. Over the last year, I've started evangelizing among junior faculty about the importance of stepping up and running the show, or else working for Walmart U.

[LadyShea]

What scares me most is that what is happening at the universities is part and parcel to what is happening in all of education. This right wing push against public schools is about creating for profit businesses that support other for profit businesses* in a big old circle jerk. It is not about better education of kids. They wrap it up in pretty "Concern for the children" paper, but it's still "Put money into someone's pocket" underneath.


*How many billions has NCLB made for test and curriculum producers and other related companies? http://www.fair.org/blog/2012/04/30/...ere-saying-it/

[Qingdai]

Subtle racism? Or parents fleeing schools that have been historically underfunded and left dysfunctional?

Those Kids, Our Kids - BlueOregon

I tried to send my kid to the local school but they didn't have any services my kid needed.

[lisarea]

Probably some of both, but it's all racism at the root of it.

It's really hard for parents to stand on principle when they feel like their kids are at risk, so it's understandable for parents to keep their kids in the better funded schools, rather than going against the flow and sending them into a school you've only heard scary things about.

I got bused as a kid to the mostly black school, but I'd been really treated horribly at the home school with the good reputation. My parents had to pull me out in second grade and send me to a private open school after someone at the school called them and said if I didn't get out soon, I was going to be physically hurt there. So once I aged out of my private school and was put in the desegregation program, that option was better than sending me back to that home school.

I don't know how many white kids were supposed to be in that program, but most of them got out of it. It was a pretty big school, and there was just about exactly one classroom's worth of white kids there. Which I use as the measure because that's where they put us. Somehow, coincidentally, ALL of the white kids were "gifted," and only two or three black kids were! And we had I think the only white teacher, even. And she hounded the black kids, to the point that one day she had some giant breakdown and started crying in class sobbing about how the administrators were making her fill out too much paperwork to get the only black boy in the class EXPELLED. From elementary school! For his many crimes of "getting up to use the pencil sharpener without permission" and shit like that.

Even as dumbassed little kids, we all saw what was going on.

So I dunno. I mean, I was the only one of my family who got bused, so I think in my case, my parents did it not out of general principle, but because the teachers and administrators at the good school were fucking with me so hard. But even then, the racism in the system was so entrenched that they had internal segregation right there in the school. It's probably not as bald faced now as it was in the 70s or anything, but it's not like it's gone either. And you can't fight it alone, because it's pervasive. It has to be done systemically, and you have to root out the Mrs. Smiths (yeah, I just CALLED HER OUT by name!) who are working deep inside the system to maintain the fucked up status quo.

[LadyShea]

My neighbor a long time ago was all "You will probably move later so Kiddo can go to X school instead of Y" (I would have to move exactly one mile South, as I live on the zone line), and like three people in the room were all "racist!" but she tried to make it about facilities and programs or whatever. The schools are 8 miles apart, in the same district, built less than a decade apart. They have the same access to clubs and sports and such. They have the same curriculum, etc. The only difference is that school X is in a zone that is 95% white and school Y is in a zone that is only 75-80% white or something. Also, school Y has 3 times as many students.

It seems to me, that with that large a difference in number of students, that zoning was done in such a way to specifically make them economically and racially segregated. That may be paranoia on my part though. School X has tried to break away from the district as well, again I think in an effort to stay upper class white, but since the building is still not even paid for, and that area provides the most tax money, the district was all "lol, no"

[Qingdai]

The school Qingdai jr. went to was majority Spanish speaking and black, he was one of about 4 honky kids in his class. I really didn't think that the actual teachers were bad, but they had no funding to deal with special education and the district policy is to put kids in contained classrooms.
The years of lack of funding of the school stood out in the physical body of the school. The former principal talked about it being a gang school/neighborhood, which it really isn't. It's working class. 50% of the eligible kids don't attend the school, they charter, private school and lottery out. Portland public school has a lottery system, to switch schools which hosed the local schools. Now they're trying to undo that, but it'll take years.

[Qingdai]

Also I was looking at the class picture of my friend who's daughter is in the gifted school program (they also segregate that in our school district, sigh. I'm beginning to see a problem here), they are about 1/3 minority based on a quick non-scientific evaluation of last name/appearance, I don't think that as many white kids are put in TAG programs as there used to be (possibly because of teacher evaluations and recommendations), compared to actual minority population in our particular city it seems about right, but you know, lies, damned lies and statistics.

[The Lone Ranger]

We've started a fund, since some people have had to cancel their insurance, given that they can't pay the now-outrageous premiums. Naturally, one staff member cancelled her insurance and was then hospitalized with a kidney stone, so we're using the fund to help pay her hospital bill.

We just got an e-mail today from one faculty member who said that, regrettably, he can't contribute to the fund. Given how much he now has to pay for health insurance, he's facing the very real prospect of losing his house.

[thedoc]

I guess there is some advantage to being old, our medical insurance were set to go way up, so we opted out for private insurance, then medicare kicked in, so we are paying a lot less now. Look into other providers rather than going through the group, it may be less expensive. Sometimes it seems like group providers think that they have you locked into the group with no options.

[LadyShea]

Supposedly the exchanges go live October 1, so ensure your coworkers have whatever information they need to look into private coverage.

[Dingfod]

It's also looking like insurance premiums on the exchanges will be much less costly than expected, in some non-greedy motherfucker locales anyway. Zero dollars sounds very affordable, Vermont.

[The Lone Ranger]

This is going around the department right now. Let me just add a hearty "Amen!". Especially to #1.

[erimir]

I think #3 is something that is in flux.

I definitely had professors in undergrad who didn't care whether they were called by their first name, or preferred it. In grad school, all my professors have wanted me to call them by their first names (although I'm still somewhat unsure what to do with professors outside my department/I've never met in person).

We might be heading the way of Sweden eventually (where high school and even elementary school students call teachers by their first names).

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by erimir

I think #3 is something that is in flux.

I definitely had professors in undergrad who didn't care whether they were called by their first name, or preferred it. In grad school, all my professors have wanted me to call them by their first names (although I'm still somewhat unsure what to do with professors outside my department/I've never met in person).

We might be heading the way of Sweden eventually (where high school and even elementary school students call teachers by their first names).

That really shouldn't be a problem, teachers first names are easy to remember.
for men it's Mister.
and for women it's either Miss or Missus.

[The Lone Ranger]

When students ask, I tell them that I don't mind in the least if they call me "Michael." I tell them that they will fail the class if they call me "Mike," however.


I attended a very liberal Quaker college as an undergrad, and it was considered utterly proper to call professors by their first names.

[Dingfod]

Raymond J. Johnson Jr. - YouTube

[Janet]

I had a professor at McGill who told us he used to play with/torture his grad students on that point. He said the new TAs or research assistants would be used to calling him Dr. Taylor, but they would hear the others call him Don. After a while, they didn't know what they should use and would start avoiding having to call him by name. He would notice this, because he was a psychologist after all, and then push them into situations where they absolutely had to use his name.

Psych professors: Fascinated enough by human behavior to be dicks about it.

[Angakuk]

It is such a simple thing to ask "May I call you Don?" Why do people find that simple courtesy so difficult?

[thedoc]

My friends call me 'The Doc', you can call me 'Sir'.

[Angakuk]

I guess you just answered my question for me.

[The Lone Ranger]

I got two interesting e-mails from students yesterday.



One was from a student in the Introductory-level Human A&P class. She somewhat snippily informed me that since I don't post their grades anywhere, she has no way of knowing her class average. She wants me to tell her what it is, so she can decide whether or not to drop the course before the deadline to do so.

I very politely responded by pointing out that I post the grades on the course website, and that I have done so all semester. So all she has to do to figure out her current average is go to the course website and check the grades for herself. As I have mentioned in class. On numerous occasions.

I didn't mention that no one else seems to be having any trouble doing so, since on the day after each test, the most common topic of discussion in the first 5 minutes or so of class is, "So, how did you do on the test?". I'm not sure how she has managed to miss these conversations. Or maybe she thinks that the other students know their grades through ESP?



The other e-mail was from a student in the Advanced Human A&P class. A student who had loudly announced at the beginning of the semester that she had better things to do than actually attend the class, because she already knows all of this stuff. Accordingly, she has almost never bothered to actually show up to class.

We had an exam on Tuesday, and she had sent me an e-mail the day before announcing that she wouldn't be there to take the exam, and would take it later. As I was feeling overly generous, I replied that she wanted to take the exam, she could take it today at 3:00 p.m. -- at my convenience.

She sent a somewhat snippy reply which complained about how "no consideration at all is given to the lives students have outside of classes".


Well golly. Pardon me for scheduling an exam for the time during which the class actually meets. What was I thinking? Who would have thought that scheduling an exam for that time would prove to be such an inconvenience for someone who had actually signed up for the class?

Anyway, she informs me that she's chosen to withdraw from the class, and will take it elsewhere. Presumably, with someone who will be more willing to bend over backwards in order to "accommodate her needs."


Frankly, I can't say that it's a great loss. For someone who had loudly announced at the beginning of the semester that taking the class was a waste of her time, and that she had nothing to learn from it, her performance on the exams provided really convincing evidence that she didn't understand the material at all. (Which is to say that she's failing the course badly, even if I choose to overlook the fact that she gets no points at all for class or lab participation.)

Which really makes me wonder about where she took the Nursing courses that she claimed had already taught her all of this in great detail.

-- Michael

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

O crap. My wife found out the hard way, that the very expensive Business degree from University of Phoenix is virtually worthless, hardly any employers respect it. They're accredited by exactly one 19-state regional accrediting organization, the Chicago-based Higher Learning Commission, no national accreditation. Their accreditation with that one organization was just extended on the conditions that they make improvements in the next two years. They were extended though, which means UoP continues to make 80% of their revenues from student loans and grants. That is a shitty model.

Edit: She worked very hard for that degree too. She learned a lot. Too bad it gets no respect. Too bad it's for profit.

Edit2: I looked, my collegiate alma mater is accredited by the HLC too! Yippee! I never finished a degree there or anywhere though.

I feel bad for your wife. Seriously. But she's right. And you're right. University of Phoenix / DeVry / etc. are scams. Total scams.
University of Phoenix Closing 115 Locations, Affecting 13,000 Students
University of Phoenix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2008, the university was the top recipient of student financial aid funds, receiving nearly $2.48 billion.[72] In 2009, the Department of Education produced a report that claimed the untimely return of unearned Title IV funds for more than 10 percent of sampled students. The report also expressed concern that some students register and begin attending classes before completely understanding the implications of enrollment, including their eligibility for student financial aid. In January 2010, the parent company Apollo Group was required to post a letter of credit for $125 million by January 30 of the same year.[73] In 2010, UOPX came under government scrutiny after its Phoenix and Philadelphia campuses were found to have been engaging in deceptive enrollment practices and fraudulent solicitation of FAFSA funds.[74][75]

On May 25, 2011, Apollo Group was notified that a complaint had been filed by under the Federal False Claims Act and California False Claims Act. The complaint alleges that University of Phoenix has violated the Federal False Claims Act since December 12, 2009 and the California False Claims Act for the preceding ten years by falsely certifying to the U.S. Department of Education and the State of California that University of Phoenix was in compliance with various regulations that require compliance with federal rules regarding the payment of incentive compensation to admissions personnel, in connection with University of Phoenix’s participation in student financial aid programs. The relators seek significant damages on behalf of the US Department of Education and the State of California, including all student financial aid disbursed by the Department of education to University of Phoenix students since December 2009 and by the State of California since 2001. [76]

Several other investigations and lawsuits continue to be pending, including Attorneys General cases in Florida, Massachusetts, and Delaware.[76]

And they're expensive, too. Her best bet is to see if she can transfer any of those credits to a real college or university, and get a more widely accredited degree. But that's expensive, and it will feel like an infuriating exercise, a useless repeat.

It's not like all online degrees are bad (I tend to dislike them because the data suggests that students don't learn as much, but some are actually meaningful).
U.S. News Ranks 2013 Best Online Education Programs - US News and World Report

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On a different note, I've had to steer at least two friends away from online degrees recently.

"But why? I'm a busy mother / entrepreneur / whatever."

Look, it's simple: the degree is not accredited.
If you showed up for an interview with this on your resume, not only would the education be discounted and zero'ed out from your resume - but it would actually make you seem less fit as a candidate.

"You're kidding. Why is that?"

Because it tells me that you are the kind of person to spend large sums of money and invest lots of time on a critical project, without researching it first.
Given that reality, why in the world would I hire you?"

*crickets*

[Dingfod]

Without government-backed student loans and grants, University of Phoenix would cease to exist. And I'm all for that.