Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > Arts & Literature

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 09-05-2004, 07:30 PM
livius drusus's Avatar
livius drusus livius drusus is offline
Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: LVCCCLXXII
Images: 5
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farren
You mean like Virginia Wolfe's To the Lighthouse? They knock me unconscious, I'm afraid.
He he... Yes, that's what I meant. Have you tried Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man? In my experience, even people who normally can't stand soc get a lot out of Portrait.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-05-2004, 08:06 PM
Adam's Avatar
Adam Adam is offline
Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
Posts: XMVDCCXLIX
Images: 29
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adora
And then on the flipside, you have books that think they're being deep by just simply describing really boring objects and passing it off as existential angst or some shit...Haruki Murakami's work walks a very fine line.
I think Murakami usually avoids falling into the pointless-descriptive-passages-masquerading-as-existentialism trap because his long detail laden digressions more often than not serve to create a mood that's necessary to the experience of his novels. For example, he devotes an inordinate amount of time in The Wind Up Bird Chronicle to describing the protagonist lying about in the sun with {can't remember her name} in excruciating detail, but it doesn't cross the line into fake angsty bullshit for me, simply because I think he does a good job evoking the experience of long hot pointless afternoons, of which I have wasted quite a few myself. I will admit, however, that I get sick and tired of Murakami's habit of detailing the particulars of the preparation and consumption of every meal his characters eat. Dude, I really don't need to know how many slices he's cutting his cucumbers into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adora
And numbah won!!1one on the list is *drumroll please* Deus Ex Machina. GRAH! Of course, the whole fucking problem with this is that it's only when you get to the end that it all happens, and you're like "Well fuck. This might've been a good book if not for that shit". There can occasionally be some good excuses for it, like if the environment the story was being acted out in was one contrived by something that can change the minds of people etc. And I will accept that to a point. But just "and then the fucker woke up" will just about make me pop a blood vessel.
Tell me about it. On of my favorite sci-fi series ever. Peter Hamilton's Night's Dawn trilogy (which is actually 6 books in America, due to the large volumes being split in two), ends with


Quote:
Originally Posted by Farren
I must admit I like a lot of overly complicated writing. Can we list positives on this thread? I really like the density and poetry of Rushdie's writing although, like rich foods I enjoy it only in moderation.
I agree completely. Rushdie's style does a great job filling in enough atmospheric details to draw me into the time and place he's describing, and always puts me in the mind of traditional oral narrative, where numerous seemingly insignificant digressions occur simply because, relevant to the plot or not, they're part of the story. He can definitely be dense and difficult to read, though. I've started The Moor's Last Sigh three times and never managed to finish it, although I love the parts I have read. I simply get tired of the slow reading and distracted by an easier book before I finish. I guess it doesn't help that I normally read very quickly, and any work that requires me to slow down and process detail tends to frustrate me.
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
ARMORED HOT DOG
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-07-2004, 01:17 AM
Adora's Avatar
Adora Adora is offline
Raping the Marlboro Man
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MMMLXXXVI
Images: 1
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farren
China Miéville's incredible Perdido Street Station demonstrated that it is possible to write fantasy that is entirely a work of imagination rather than stringing together bits and pieces of stuff that's as common as muck and equally as boring.
Well, eh, kinda yes and kinda no. Mieville used very obscure referencing in his stuff- garudas, grindylow, Lovecraftian monsters etc etc. which a lot of people wouldn't know, and so it would seem more original (a little like JKR using her knowledge of Old-English and such when picking character names). Which is original and good in itself. But a lot of the stuff in his works are very original re-workings on the subjects he nicked. I completely fell in love with his Grindylow and The Weaver in PSS and the Scar, even though they were things I knew about/had read about a lot before. This was mostly because of his masterful description that gave me shivvers and tinglings all over my body.

Quote:
I think Murakami usually avoids falling into the pointless-descriptive-passages-masquerading-as-existentialism trap because his long detail laden digressions more often than not serve to create a mood that's necessary to the experience of his novels. For example, he devotes an inordinate amount of time in The Wind Up Bird Chronicle to describing the protagonist lying about in the sun with {can't remember her name} in excruciating detail, but it doesn't cross the line into fake angsty bullshit for me, simply because I think he does a good job evoking the experience of long hot pointless afternoons, of which I have wasted quite a few myself. I will admit, however, that I get sick and tired of Murakami's habit of detailing the particulars of the preparation and consumption of every meal his characters eat. Dude, I really don't need to know how many slices he's cutting his cucumbers into.
See, this is what I mean by a fine line: I know both of these things you mention here are influences from the cultural structures he grew up in. The description or depiction of environments to create moods is a common characteristic of Japanese media, and so I can easily justify that. The food thing is also Japanese, but a more modern issue. Back in the old days, food was either ceremonial or unspoken of. You ate, but you didn't talk about it, because it was part of the "defiling" of the body under Shinto beliefs. Post War food became a symbol of class, and so was equally unspoken of in case you offended someone. Then in the 80's all this changed. The "Guumei" (Gourmet) culture took off and suddenly food was good. This is where you get shows like Iron Chef from and such. A lot of modern Japanese literature does it because of this, because they don't have a literary history that has ever had any focus on food, they want to make up for lost time.

And yes, I do like Baudolino too.

One of the literary tropes I have a real love/hate relationship with is lists. Lists of things, places, objects, people etc. At the same time as I know lists are important and they can be interesting sometimes to read, other times they're just too fucking long and make my brain go *snore*, even if they are important. Borges stuff sometimes gets like this.

As for long paragraphs, I say, if they're done well, they can be excellent. As with long sentences. Let me give you one of my favourites:

Quote:
'By God brother it's like the eighties in here.'
'Sure it's a grey and airless wasteland of banality suffused with the impossibility of imagination or trye creativity and anyone trying to grow in this'll have a time getting out with a living heart and soul and those who claim to be the way-out-and-wacky ones are as drab as the rest thus lowering the threshold of individuality to somewhere below the knee and in an atmosphere like that is it a wonder the bastards who voted for death took a decade and a half to realise the fucking obvious and who were all the cunts who thought it was a fine old time and now won't even admit they were there and for those of us with the wit to see in all its horror what we were living through it was like being awake during bloody surgery and no wonder we were offing ourselves left right and centre and now it's all retrospective and no one's responsible and what a surprise and we're all wise now well let me tell you Sonny Jim apart from a but of music the only difference now is there's fuck-all money to be had anywhere and the song's all caring-and-sharing because after all people like to pretend they're in control of their withered lives and that they're poor and ineffectual by their own free will but I can feel the sterility of those times around the edges of my vision brother and it never goes away.'
'Exactly. Is that Eddie I hear?'
Oh, how I do adore Steve Aylett. The first weird-fictionist I ever read. *dances*
__________________
I ATEN'T DED
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-07-2004, 05:15 AM
Ymir's blood's Avatar
Ymir's blood Ymir's blood is offline
Coffin Creep
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The nightmare realm
Posts: XXXDCCCIII
Images: 67
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog
#2
I didn't like Crime and Punishment either, but for very different reasons. That book isn't badly written; it's written entirely too well. The physical, moral and psychological decay and squalor depicted are so palpable, that I felt I had to take a shower, or at least wash my hands, every time I read part of that book. It gave me the creeps.
I've never read it, but your experience sounds similiar to my attempt at reading his (Dostoyevsky) Notes From The Underground. The alienation of the protagonist was just too painful. Someday it might get picked up again but not anytime in the near future.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-07-2004, 03:56 PM
livius drusus's Avatar
livius drusus livius drusus is offline
Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: LVCCCLXXII
Images: 5
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

I've never read Notes, but from what I've heard, I'd probably feel much the same way you do about it, Ymir's blood.

P.S. - Your avatar is gorgeous. :)
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-07-2004, 04:06 PM
viscousmemories's Avatar
viscousmemories viscousmemories is offline
Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ypsilanti, Mi
Gender: Male
Posts: XXXDCCXLVII
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 9
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

I read Notes From Underground when I was in my early 20's. I probably didn't understand most of it, but as a chronic depressive who had at that time just begun the existential crisis that still plagues me today, I could really relate to the protagonist. I do think it would be more painful for me to read today, though.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-07-2004, 08:23 PM
Ymir's blood's Avatar
Ymir's blood Ymir's blood is offline
Coffin Creep
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The nightmare realm
Posts: XXXDCCCIII
Images: 67
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus
I've never read Notes, but from what I've heard, I'd probably feel much the same way you do about it, Ymir's blood.

P.S. - Your avatar is gorgeous. :)
Thank you. :blush3: I made it last night in Photoshop.

Guess I should mention it, some of you may remember me as Pitshade from IIDB.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-07-2004, 08:27 PM
Ymir's blood's Avatar
Ymir's blood Ymir's blood is offline
Coffin Creep
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The nightmare realm
Posts: XXXDCCCIII
Images: 67
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
I read Notes From Underground when I was in my early 20's. I probably didn't understand most of it, but as a chronic depressive who had at that time just begun the existential crisis that still plagues me today, I could really relate to the protagonist. I do think it would be more painful for me to read today, though.
My identification with the protagonist was what made it painful. I was in my late twenties at the time and pretty far along into a crisis of my own.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-07-2004, 09:11 PM
livius drusus's Avatar
livius drusus livius drusus is offline
Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: LVCCCLXXII
Images: 5
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ymir's blood
Thank you. :blush3: I made it last night in Photoshop.
Another artist in our midst... You did a mighty fine job. :yup:

Quote:
Guess I should mention it, some of you may remember me as Pitshade from IIDB.
Yes, some of us just may. It's so nice to talk to you again. :glomp2:
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-08-2004, 03:46 AM
Adam's Avatar
Adam Adam is offline
Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
Posts: XMVDCCXLIX
Images: 29
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ymir's blood
Guess I should mention it, some of you may remember me as Pitshade from IIDB.
Huh? Pit who, now?
:P
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
ARMORED HOT DOG
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-08-2004, 04:17 AM
Petra's Avatar
Petra Petra is offline
Love Bomb
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NZ (Aotearoa)
Posts: VMMMCCXXXIX
Images: 215
Default Re: Pet Book Peeves

Quote:
Originally Posted by freemonkey
Quote:
Pet Book Peeves
Most of my pet books just lay around the house all day long. Bugs the hell out of me!
Great minds think alike, freemonkey - only my pet book peeve is that they all assume that one actually has a pet.
__________________
“Passion makes the world go round. Love just makes it a safer place.”

~ Ice T ~
Reply With Quote
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > Arts & Literature


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.56937 seconds with 15 queries