State of the New Zealand Family

[Petra]

I watched a debate tonight on TVNZ. Wish I could've video'd it for y'all. It was great: calm, reasoned, and well-facilitated.

Here's the blurb from TV One's programme schedule:

What is a New Zealand family?

The Civil Union Bill has made the definition of "family" a hotly debated topic. In State of the New Zealand Family, hosted by Susan Wood, gay couples, politicians, experts, single parents and conservatives debate what constitutes a family unit in our ever-changing society.

Under most New Zealand legislation, the state's presumption is that a "family" follows the traditional nuclear model - mum, dad and kids. However, increasing numbers of New Zealand families are set up differently and legislation, such as the Civil Union Bill, seeks to reflect these changes.

This doesn't sit well with traditional values groups. The head pastor of the Destiny Church, Brian Tamaki, decries the Civil Union Bill, which will allow same-sex and de-facto couples to legally register their union (but stops short of actually calling it marriage).

Tamaki believes family based on marriage is the cornerstone of the nation and the Civil Union Bill is placing it under threat; but many New Zealanders, especially gay and lesbian couples in committed relationships, welcome a wider definition of "family".

"What we hope to do is bring advocates of all those differing views face to face, live in the same TV studio," says producer Richard Harman.

"In doing that we expect we'll see the same tension between the participants we saw with the recent immigration debate we produced. But if that debate is anything to go by we also expect to find an audience who really want to see the crunch issues facing New Zealand debated intelligently and with insight into the way we live today."

The issue was debated intelligently and respectfully, and prompted me to write a letter to the editor of The Listener.

Here's my letter:

It was wonderful to watch the debate on TV One's "The State of the New Zealand Family". The fact that we are able to conduct civil discourse, in a public arena on such contentious issues, is something that we New Zealanders should be very proud of. In a world that appears to have gone mad with rightwing religious-political extremism and Machiavellian sloganeering I am grateful that we can, and do, do this. Thank you, TV One.

I would’ve liked to have voted “yes” in the poll that TV One hosted, as I do believe that the gay family is a real family, just like any other; and that the proposed civil union bill is an enlightened one that promotes love, commitment, and fairness. Unfortunately, I waited too long to make the call and could not vote. The final tally disappointed me, but the statements made by many of the debate contributors gave me some hope for this country. The closing transcribed statement, of a long-serving family court judge, summed up my sentiments on the matter beautifully.

Bigotry and intolerance seem to be very much in vogue in the world right now, and it tends to hide behind, or piggyback upon, carefully selected bible scripture with twisted interpretations, and espoused as an absolute. Kind of like the religious right’s obsession with the 10 Commandments, while ignoring the Sermon on the Mount. It is disingenuous at best, and dangerous at it’s worst.

I’m an atheist, “liberal” and humanist, but was heartened to hear the Anglican Minister’s point of view. As I understand it, Christ was supposed to be about love, and I thought this Minister was a fine representative of his Christ. I felt quite differently about the Destiny Church’s representative, and about Peter Dunn.

The representative of Destiny Church revealed his true colours, when shortly after saying that his Church did not hate gays, went on to use a word like “detest”; undeniably a synonym for hate.

I also took issue with the “definition of marriage in the traditional sense” held by some religionists. Marriage and Family have always been dynamic and have changed drastically over history. At one time, for example, divorce was illegal no matter what the circumstance. Adherents to the view of wives as chattel used scripture to support the “sin” of divorce, or the “sin” of a woman who expressed her opinion alongside a man’s. And, biblically, it was argued that it was a man’s right to beat his wife if she was disobedient. Thank goodness all that changed!

Now, how gay couples marrying and raising children is a threat to “the institution” of marriage is beyond me. In my opinion, if the love is there, then all is well with the world; and the slippery slope of moral degradation to Armageddon is just a rightwing sadomasochistic religious fallacy.

To summarise; we are a diverse nation with a variety of cultural, secular, and religious ideology. Each must be free to believe what they believe, love whom they must love, and be equal in law and society – no matter what their religion is (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, or culture. I think that the civil union bill is an enlightened step in the right direction.

Waddaya think?

* Petra wonders if it will get published...

[Petra]

Oops. I was supposed to put this in Politics and Law.

Sorry 'bout that.

[Beth]

Awesome! I hope it does too.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by lunachick

Oops. I was supposed to put this in Politics and Law.

Sorry 'bout that.

It is in Politics & Law.

[Farren]

An articulate and eloquent response. Nice. And I know exactly how you feel. Even though my own country has some serious problems like massive income inequality, our law and constitution is founded on extremely liberal principles (like constitutional protection for sexual preference) and that's reflected in public debate, even when it involves religious leaders.

It makes you feel like you're in a quintessential 21st century state, while some of the old powers are sliding back into medieval morality. I'd be proud to call myself a New Zealander at this point in history.

[Petra]

Molti ringraziamenti, Bella!

And thanks, Beth.

Reading over the letter I wrote, I wish I had chosen a few words differently, but it's too late now - it's already been sent.

The debate was very good, though - it could have been longer is my only complaint. And some of the debate contributors were people coming in through a monitor in the studio - like a single mother with 4 children, who had been in a violent marriage for something like 16 years, and has now got out. She says that her family (herself and her children) now are much happier and healthier.

And also a lesbian couple who have been together for about the same amount of time, with one of the couple being a divorcee with a daughter, who is married to a man and heavily pregnant. All were there - the ex-husband, the daughter, a son, the son-in-law, and the couple themselves. They all looked like and expressed themselves as a happy, well-adjusted, fully-functional and loving family.

Then there was the extended Maori whanau talking, and they were all happy and healthy and well.

All different kinds of families were represented. It was neat.

Also represented, in the studio itself, were university professors, spiritual leaders, parents, some teens (and they also had their turn to speak), politicians, ...er, and some that I forgot who they were and what they did, but they rocked.

[Petra]

Thanks, Farren.

And, yeah, I am rather proud - and grateful - to be a New Zealander right now. We have our problems, but we're on the right track in many respects, I think.


Go, Aotearoa!

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by lunachick

Thanks, Farren.

And, yeah, I am rather proud - and grateful - to be a New Zealander right now. We have our problems, but we're on the right track in many respects, I think.


Go, Aotearoa!

It is especially interesting when compared to The Land of the Free, where our president wanted an amendment to ban gay marriage with no reasoned debate whatsoever.

I liked your letter, very well written.

If they dont publish, a pox on their house.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

It is especially interesting when compared to The Land of the Free, where our president wanted an amendment to ban gay marriage with no reasoned debate whatsoever.

It's a great shame debates like this don't happen in America. I guess you just have so many tv channels that many people would probably rather watch Baywatch reruns than watch a reasoned debate with an assortment of citizens, politicians, and clergymen. I also think the cult of shows like Jerry Springer, etc, have created audiences that demand "talkshows" which simply gets their adrenaline levels pumped and their cognition regressed. I think reasoned and respectful discussion may just be too dry for many people; it's not entertaining enough at a visceral level. Yet it is a vital component to any healthy society or community, and is essential to an open democracy.

We are lucky in NZ in that we have the tradition of the Hui. These are often held on Maraes, and can go on for days. There is a protocol of mutual respect and behaviour, as well as a Maori cultural protocol, and anyone and everyone may have their turn to speak if they so desire. It will continue until some agreement is reached and resolutions are set.

Here is an online report reviewing one of many hui regarding the ongoing seabed and foreshore debates, as an example..

I liked your letter, very well written.

If they dont publish, a pox on their house.

Thank you!

[JoeP]

I was going to say how lucky you are to have open and reasoned debates, but then I realised that we have them here too; Britain has them aplenty; and even in America they exist (hmm. Can't think of any examples right now).

The difference is you've got open and reasoned debates with church, government etc involved. That's pretty rare here. I will easily believe it's non-existent in America.

Good letter, and good for you for writing it!

[Petra]

Originally Posted by JoeP

The difference is you've got open and reasoned debates with church, government etc involved. That's pretty rare here. I will easily believe it's non-existent in America.

It's interesting to note that we are considered one of the most secular nations on the planet, and even have an atheist Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, have a long serving transsexual (yep, complete operation) who is a Member of Parliament, and has been a very popular Mayor in a conservative district for a few terms now, and yet we don't have any kind of constitutional Church/State separation. I have even seen debates where leaders of muslim, jewish, christian, hindi, buddhist and Maori spirituality have partaken with government and citizens, each one speaking with respect to the other.

That's not to say they always communicate respectfully; we certainly have our fights here, too - but overall, it ain't too bad. The only hiccup we have, is a new twist - the political ambitions of Brian Tamaki and the rise of his Destiny Church. And I'm watching that guy closely.

Actually, as soon as I'm finished my school assignment (should be complete by the end of the day), I have to compose an OP for CF, as a member of the Destiny Church, kiwichristian, has agreed to have a discussion with me about it. http://www.christianforums.com/showt...4&postcount=40

Good letter, and good for you for writing it!

Thank you.