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  #7626  
Old 02-05-2012, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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I play Freecell on my computer.

You just like to win. I've played Freecell on ocasion but I favor Spider Solitaire where at least there is a chance that I could loose. If I play Freecell and am paying attention it starts to get automatic that I will win, not much of a challenge.
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  #7627  
Old 02-05-2012, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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I have asked questions and made pertinent comments about that chapter and been ignored like 5 times, now peacegirl. So yeah, this time I was laughing at the dialog...especially "Oh look here comes a Rabbi..."!
You're just being obstinate. Even if I was the one that made this dialogue up because I anticipated the questions that were going to be asked, WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT? YOU DISAPPOINT ME. :sadcheer:
"WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT?" she asked.

"Well, peacegirl, let me ask you a question to illustrate this undeniable concept. Have you read any other scholarly works meant to present new scientific discoveries?"

"OF COURSE NOT! I've only read Lessans because all truth is revealed by him! All other works are fallacious mistakes!"

"Content, in order to be taken seriously by serious people, like scientists and world leaders, must be presented clearly and seriously, without distracting and irrelevant fluff. Otherwise it is like announcing "This is crackpottery!". Oh look, here comes a scientist! Let's ask him what he thinks."
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  #7628  
Old 02-05-2012, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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You cannot observe someone moving toward greater satisfaction, but you can know that this is what he's doing based on this knowledge which is absolutely undeniable.
What does the word "undeniable" mean?

I ask because I am pretty sure I have seen people deny this, and that would seem to me to indicate that it is in fact deniable.
Bump
I can't believe you're saying this. I just listened to Lessans discussing this in Chapter One in his audio book. Later I will give you his word for word answer. Just remind me and I'll try to find it.

seebs, a new player you are supposedly catering to, asked the question and you get all upset.

I'll answer him. Undeniable, mathematical, and scientific are all synonyms, seebs. It means, in Lessansspeak absolutely certain according to Lessans.
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  #7629  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
I have asked questions and made pertinent comments about that chapter and been ignored like 5 times, now peacegirl. So yeah, this time I was laughing at the dialog...especially "Oh look here comes a Rabbi..."!
You're just being obstinate. Even if I was the one that made this dialogue up because I anticipated the questions that were going to be asked, WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT? YOU DISAPPOINT ME. :sadcheer:
"WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT?" she asked.

"Well, peacegirl, let me ask you a question to illustrate this undeniable concept. Have you read any other scholarly works meant to present new scientific discoveries?"

"OF COURSE NOT! I've only read Lessans because all truth is revealed by him! All other works are fallacious mistakes!"

"Content, in order to be taken seriously by serious people, like scientists and world leaders, must be presented clearly and seriously, without distracting and irrelevant fluff. Otherwise it is like announcing "This is crackpottery!". Oh look, here comes a scientist! Let's ask him what he thinks."
Wonderful.
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  #7630  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

"But, what kind of scientist are you?" I asked him.
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  #7631  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Also, Morrisons quote...did you verify it? Do you have a proper citation?
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  #7632  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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I must keep things in order if I'm not going to be torn apart by people who believe Lessans was a crackpot.
Too late.
It's never too late unless we're no longer here.
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  #7633  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
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I have asked questions and made pertinent comments about that chapter and been ignored like 5 times, now peacegirl. So yeah, this time I was laughing at the dialog...especially "Oh look here comes a Rabbi..."!
You're just being obstinate. Even if I was the one that made this dialogue up because I anticipated the questions that were going to be asked, WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT? YOU DISAPPOINT ME. :sadcheer:
"WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT?" she asked.

"Well, peacegirl, let me ask you a question to illustrate this undeniable concept. Have you read any other scholarly works meant to present new scientific discoveries?"

"OF COURSE NOT! I've only read Lessans because all truth is revealed by him! All other works are fallacious mistakes!"

"Content, in order to be taken seriously by serious people, like scientists and world leaders, must be presented clearly and seriously, without distracting and irrelevant fluff. Otherwise it is like announcing "This is crackpottery!". Oh look, here comes a scientist! Let's ask him what he thinks."
There is no fluff here, but in order to understand this knowledge it has to be explained in a reader friendly way. This is the reason for the dialogue. We're talking about a life changing discovery LadyShea, so it has to be clear.
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  #7634  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by seebs View Post
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You cannot observe someone moving toward greater satisfaction, but you can know that this is what he's doing based on this knowledge which is absolutely undeniable.
What does the word "undeniable" mean?

I ask because I am pretty sure I have seen people deny this, and that would seem to me to indicate that it is in fact deniable.
Bump
Why the *$(# sarcasm??? Where is this coming from? He explains explicitly what these 3 words meant in the context of THIS BOOK. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT??? :fuming:

I can't believe you're saying this. I just listened to Lessans discussing this in Chapter One in his audio book. Later I will give you his word for word answer. Just remind me and I'll try to find it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
seebs, a new player you are supposedly catering to, asked the question and you get all upset.
Seebs has asked one question and now he's a player? This thread is getting more and more ridiculous as time goes by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
I'll answer him. Undeniable, mathematical, and scientific are all synonyms, seebs. It means, in Lessansspeak absolutely certain according to Lessans.
It is YOU who is being ignorant; no different than the fundamentalists you think you're so above. It makes me sick inside. Ready to puke. :(

Last edited by peacegirl; 02-05-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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  #7635  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
"But, what kind of scientist are you?" I asked him.
He replied, "Although I am only an apprentice in these black arts of mathematics and formal logics, my masters have taught me how to find undeniable, mathematical relations between preconditions and postconditions of hardware and software systems. Look at this airplane in the sky. Like any intelligent creature, it has a brain. In the coming great age, we will be able to prove with mathematical certainty that the airplane will still be there in the sky for us to look at in real time because its brain understands these undeniable relations. Another great teacher of mine who switches the light of individual atoms with ease has taught me about the great theory of electromagnetism."

I think I'm not very good at this. I can't get the style right.
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  #7636  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
It is YOU who is being ignorant; no different than the fundamentalists you think you're so above. It makes me sick inside. Ready to puke.
Emotional bias, another crackpottery red flag.

Really peacegirl, I've ridiculed the form, especially the dialog and idiosyncratic definitions, since day one, you act like this is all new. It's like your brain actually does reset every week, and you forget all previous discussions
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  #7637  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

"There is no fluff here! This silly dialog with imaginary sycophants is really quite reader friendly! It also serves the purpose of filling space so perhaps the readers won't notice the stunning lack of evidence and sound reasoning."

"You are quite correct, the dialog is so friendly! I cannot find a flaw in your answer. Please do tell me more!"
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  #7638  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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I have asked questions and made pertinent comments about that chapter and been ignored like 5 times, now peacegirl. So yeah, this time I was laughing at the dialog...especially "Oh look here comes a Rabbi..."!
You're just being obstinate. Even if I was the one that made this dialogue up because I anticipated the questions that were going to be asked, WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT? YOU DISAPPOINT ME. :sadcheer:
"WHAT DOES THE FORM HAVE TO DO WITH THE CONTENT?" she asked.

"Well, peacegirl, let me ask you a question to illustrate this undeniable concept. Have you read any other scholarly works meant to present new scientific discoveries?"

"OF COURSE NOT! I've only read Lessans because all truth is revealed by him! All other works are fallacious mistakes!"
Added to previous post:

Lessans read tons of literature and philosophy. This discovery did not come out of thin air, as you're implying LadyShea. You want him to be wrong, just like David. That's why he wrote the following. He seemed to know intuitively the negative reaction he was going to get, and boy was he right:

Decline and Fall of All Evil: Foreword p. i

It is important to know that this book does not contain a theory
but an undeniable equation that can be scientifically proven. It has
no biases, prejudices or ulterior motives — its only concern is in
revealing knowledge never before understood. Furthermore, so as to
prevent jumping to conclusions, this book has nothing whatever to do
with communism, socialism, capitalism, government, or religion; only
with the removal of beliefs among the top echelon of the educated who
have been unconsciously passing along from generation to generation
inaccurate facts in the guise of genuine knowledge. I am about to
demonstrate in a manner our world’s leading scientists will be unable
to deny not only that the mankind system is just as harmonious as the
solar system despite all the evil and ignorance that ever existed, but
that the inception of the Golden Age cannot commence until the
knowledge pertaining to this law is accurately understood.

There are
those who may be blinded by this mathematical revelation as they
come out of Plato’s cave having lived so many years in the shadows
that distorted their beliefs into a semblance of reality — and may
deny what they do not understand or don’t want to be true.
Just bear in mind that any disagreement can be clarified in such a
way that they will be compelled to say, “Now I understand and
agree.” What isabout to be revealed is unprecedented. Soon enough
the world will know, without reservation, that mankind is on the
threshold of a GOLDEN AGE prophesied in the Bible that must come to
pass out of absolute necessity when this natural law is stamped by
the exact sciences with the brevet of truth.
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  #7639  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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"There is no fluff here! This silly dialog with imaginary sycophants is really quite reader friendly! It also serves the purpose of filling space so perhaps the readers won't notice the stunning lack of evidence and sound reasoning."

"You are quite correct, the dialog is so friendly! I cannot find a flaw in your answer. Please do tell me more!"
Do you have any idea how you're coming off? You are so sure he is wrong and therefore are coming to false conclusions based on sheer bias. I don't want you to be the one that derails this thread, which you're trying in every way possible to do. That would not be fair to all the other readers who are seriously interested in this book and what it has to offer.
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  #7640  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Quote:
It is YOU who is being ignorant; no different than the fundamentalists you think you're so above. It makes me sick inside. Ready to puke.
Emotional bias, another crackpottery red flag.

Really peacegirl, I've ridiculed the form, especially the dialog and idiosyncratic definitions, since day one, you act like this is all new. It's like your brain actually does reset every week, and you forget all previous discussions
Yes, you have, and it still means nothing. Regardless of the format, you need to argue the points being made because that's all that matters. Do you even understand the difference? You could have perfect form and the content could be wrong, and you could have bad form (which I don't think it is) and have a perfectly sound concept.
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  #7641  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

"I knew, of course, that people would find my stunning overconfidence in my own astounding abilities to find the hidden truth of the Universe threatening, so I took the opportunity to explain, early on, that I am of course correct and perfect in every possible way. This is undeniable!"

"Yes, I see that you are by far the smartest human being on the planet, not subject to human mistakes and biases, and certainly scientists and scholars will find you intimidating, knowing so much more about physics and neuroscience than they do. Why, they might even try to crucify you like Jesus! However do you cope?"

"I know the Golden Age will come about, because I am correct in all ways, and my germinal substance will allow me to be there, though it won't be me, of course."

"Of course, this is so wonderful I feel like peeing my pants in joyous rapture!"
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  #7642  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

"I need to add, for the sake of all those many readers who are very interested in every word I utter, that they should ignore any counter-evidence or refutations of my work, because by the very nature of being counter-evidence or refutations they are undeniably fallacious and incorrect."

"That goes without saying! Of course anything that is not in agreement with your undeniable mathematical and scientific conclusions is incorrect by definition! Thank you once again for being so reader friendly!"
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  #7643  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

So how about that modal fallacy peacegirl? You want serious discussion? There it is. Your entire argument about that is "No it isn't!" as if that means anything.
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  #7644  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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You have to support where the "necessary", or "must", came from, otherwise it is fallacious.

You can state it isn't fallacious all day, but you need to show it isn't.

Quote:
once a choice is made we could never have chosen otherwise based on our circumstances
You can't derive "this option was chosen necessarily" from "this option was chosen actually". That's the modal fallacy right there.
Bump
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  #7645  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Also, Morrisons quote...did you verify it? Do you have a proper citation?
I understand your desire to know where the quote came from, but you're going to have to trust that my father found the proper citation even if he didn't cite it in the book. If you can't let this go, you're going to be stuck on page 1 and never get to the meat of this knowledge. You're still sitting on the periphery.
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  #7646  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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You have to support where the "necessary", or "must", came from, otherwise it is fallacious.

You can state it isn't fallacious all day, but you need to show it isn't.

Quote:
once a choice is made we could never have chosen otherwise based on our circumstances
You can't derive "this option was chosen necessarily" from "this option was chosen actually". That's the modal fallacy right there.
Bump
Yes I can. If an option is chosen actually, it had to be chosen necessarily. Until you understand why man's will is not free, you will continue to argue with me that we have free choice. I don't even think you understood the discussion with the rabbi, yet you're the first to ridicule the dialogue style. How ironic.
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  #7647  
Old 02-05-2012, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
"I need to add, for the sake of all those many readers who are very interested in every word I utter, that they should ignore any counter-evidence or refutations of my work, because by the very nature of being counter-evidence or refutations they are undeniably fallacious and incorrect."

"That goes without saying! Of course anything that is not in agreement with your undeniable mathematical and scientific conclusions is incorrect by definition! Thank you once again for being so reader friendly!"
I told you that I don't mind you questioning what isn't clear to you. But your attitude is one of defiance and confrontation. The fact that you cry "ASSERTION", when this is not what it is, is one such instance. Your attitude is getting in the way of true understanding. This has nothing to do with Lessans.
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  #7648  
Old 02-05-2012, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
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You have to support where the "necessary", or "must", came from, otherwise it is fallacious.

You can state it isn't fallacious all day, but you need to show it isn't.

Quote:
once a choice is made we could never have chosen otherwise based on our circumstances
You can't derive "this option was chosen necessarily" from "this option was chosen actually". That's the modal fallacy right there.
Bump
Yes I can. If an option is chosen actually, it had to be chosen necessarily.
That is the modal fallacy. You just committed it in your response. You don't understand the fallacy at all do you?

Hint: actual truths and necessary truths are very different things.
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  #7649  
Old 02-05-2012, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

From the first hundred pages

Can you refute the summary below using any form of rational argumentation and avoiding ad homs regarding my motivations and mindset and without mere assertions of "you're so wrong I can't even believe how wrong you are" and without moving the goalposts and without diversionary tactics?


The foundational premise, "Humans always move in the direction of greater satisfaction" is a tautology because Lessans defined all actions/choices, whether voluntary or involuntary, as movement in the direction of greater satisfaction. His conclusion that "Mans will is not free because humans always move in the direction of greater satisfaction" is therefore also a tautology, because all actions/choices are already included in the premise.
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  #7650  
Old 02-05-2012, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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"But, what kind of scientist are you?" I asked him.
He replied, "Although I am only an apprentice in these black arts of mathematics and formal logics, my masters have taught me how to find undeniable, mathematical relations between preconditions and postconditions of hardware and software systems. Look at this airplane in the sky. Like any intelligent creature, it has a brain. In the coming great age, we will be able to prove with mathematical certainty that the airplane will still be there in the sky for us to look at in real time because its brain understands these undeniable relations. Another great teacher of mine who switches the light of individual atoms with ease has taught me about the great theory of electromagnetism."

I think I'm not very good at this. I can't get the style right.
This goes way beyond style. You are using your computer training as a standard to judge the validity of this work. To make matters worse, you are now mixing up formal logic with mathematical relations. Don't you even know the difference between the two? And who are these masters of yours? :eek:
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