A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

This has nothing to do with "if I believe it, it makes it so". But if we don't know the truth about our nature, we will not be able to uncover those things that are dependent on this knowledge for their discovery.

If these 'things' are true about our nature, they will be in effect whether we know about them, believe in them, or not. They will not need to be discovered to be true. This is the problem with Lessans, these things are not true and will not be even if you convince everyone to believe it, reality is what it is and you are not going to change it.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

This is the last thing I'm going to say on this topic for now. The light coming from the Sun is constantly being replaced. The object absorbs certain wavelengths, and from this absorption we can see the object or take a photograph of it in real time DUE TO EFFERENT VISION. This is what allows the object to reveal itself. This does not violate the laws of physics. If Lessans is right, light becomes a condition of sight, not a cause.

Lady.

Get. Help.

You need a therapist. I kid you not. You are going to end up a danger to yourself and/or others if you don't do something about this. This is insane. I don't mean "funny". I don't mean "challenging to the mainstream". I do really mean not sane.

You are advocating a complete rejection of everything we've ever learned about light and sense organs based on the rantings of a person who absolutely refused to do any sort of empirical testing, and whose claims explicitly reject the very concept of testing. Mostly, what you're saying about perception is simply untestable, but in some cases you can test it... and it's wrong. We've already long since established that human eyes get exactly the same time-delayed data that every other kind of sensor does.

Your dad was insane. Yeah, can't diagnose over the Internet and all that, but seriously, this stuff about suddenly perceiving things that revolutionize the world, and that contradict basic physics, and which never pan out? Textbook schizophrenia.

I dunno what's wrong with you. My guess is it's purely emotional; you are utterly committed to the idea that your dad was right, not crazy, and you're throwing your life away to try to prove this. Meanwhile, you obviously know it's insane, because you are very carefully avoiding learning enough about science to be able to test any of this. You have lots of rationalizations, but that's all they are.

You wanna honor your dad's memory? Learn how basic science works, learn how it explains things, and either prove it wrong or admit that you were wrong. This will never get easier; every month you spend on this crazy shit is another month of regret you'll have to make it through if you ever want to do something sane with your life.

If you really, truly, believe that this stuff will change the world? Give it away. Make it free, make it available, encourage people to copy it. If he's right and this ends war and crime, you will have accomplished a great thing. If you stick to trying to conceal and protect it, that just tells people that you know it's not persuasive. (Whether or not that's how you feel, that's the message people get.)

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

It's not a matter of being convinced of it, as if I'm forcing this knowledge on you. I'm trying to explain why man's will is not free so you will accept it willingly. Only then can we move on.

peacegirl, if something is real and inevitable then opinion or convincing is irrelevant. If the sun supernovas then destruction of the earth is inevitable
And opinion or convincing people of it just does not matter.

If Lessans is right you are wasting your time. You don't need to tell anybody anything. Just kickback and enjoy your life. The grief you are subjecting yourself to is completely unnecessary.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by seebs

Lady.

Get. Help.

You need a therapist. I kid you not. You are going to end up a danger to yourself and/or others if you don't do something about this. This is insane. I don't mean "funny". I don't mean "challenging to the mainstream". I do really mean not sane.

You are advocating a complete rejection of everything we've ever learned about light and sense organs based on the rantings of a person who absolutely refused to do any sort of empirical testing, and whose claims explicitly reject the very concept of testing. Mostly, what you're saying about perception is simply untestable, but in some cases you can test it... and it's wrong. We've already long since established that human eyes get exactly the same time-delayed data that every other kind of sensor does.

Your dad was insane. Yeah, can't diagnose over the Internet and all that, but seriously, this stuff about suddenly perceiving things that revolutionize the world, and that contradict basic physics, and which never pan out? Textbook schizophrenia.

I dunno what's wrong with you. My guess is it's purely emotional; you are utterly committed to the idea that your dad was right, not crazy, and you're throwing your life away to try to prove this. Meanwhile, you obviously know it's insane, because you are very carefully avoiding learning enough about science to be able to test any of this. You have lots of rationalizations, but that's all they are.

I never said we don't get data from light. In fact, I said that we can pick up light on our detectors, but we don't get a past image such that if we were on the star Rigel we would be able to see Columbus discovering America if the light from this past event struck our telescopes. We do not get an exact copy of matter from light alone. This is not a far out concept when you understand it.

Originally Posted by Seebs

You wanna honor your dad's memory? Learn how basic science works, learn how it explains things, and either prove it wrong or admit that you were wrong. This will never get easier; every month you spend on this crazy shit is another month of regret you'll have to make it through if you ever want to do something sane with your life.

Don't worry about me, okay? I'm quite able to handle whatever I need to share, and this is one of them. You are entitled to reject what I offer. I'm not force feeding this to you.

Originally Posted by Seebs

If you really, truly, believe that this stuff will change the world? Give it away. Make it free, make it available, encourage people to copy it. If he's right and this ends war and crime, you will have accomplished a great thing. If you stick to trying to conceal and protect it, that just tells people that you know it's not persuasive. (Whether or not that's how you feel, that's the message people get.)

Believe me, I am making the Mp3 available after 40 years of this tape turned CD turned Mp3 being safety guarded.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

peacegirl, if something is real and inevitable then opinion or convincing is irrelevant. If the sun supernovas then destruction of the earth is inevitable
And opinion or convincing people of it just does not matter.

If Lessans is right you are wasting your time. You don't need to tell anybody anything. Just kickback and enjoy your life. The grief you are subjecting yourself to is completely unnecessary.

I can kick back and enjoy life and pass on this knowledge at the same time. Knowledge means nothing unless it can be applied, and without people knowing about this discovery, it will remain hidden. If Lessans is right, then it is imperative that I share this knowledge. Thank you for being concerned for my welfare. I am seeing a different side of you that I didn't know existed, and its refreshing.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by thedoc

If these 'things' are true about our nature, they will be in effect whether we know about them, believe in them, or not. They will not need to be discovered to be true. This is the problem with Lessans, these things are not true and will not be even if you convince everyone to believe it, reality is what it is and you are not going to change it.

And you tell me you read Chapter One and retained the information, let alone the entire book? He spent the whole first part of this chapter explaining why it is imperative that this knowledge be brought to light. Do you see why I'm frustrated? Here it is again:

Decline and Fall of All Evil: Chapter One: The Hiding Place

Long ago man formed a theory that the earth was flat
because he could not conceive of it as a ball suspended in
space. It became a dogma, such a fixed idea that when the
first astronomer, in attempting to explain the reason why
darkness came over the sun in the middle of the day, was denied an
opportunity to present his findings because his discovery called into
question this sacred belief. Let us imagine the first astronomer being
granted an interview by the leading authorities of his time to explain
the cause of a solar eclipse.

“Dear gentlemen, I have come to you to explain my findings about
the shape of the earth. In order for you to understand the cause of
the darkness coming over the sun, it is first necessary to understand
that the earth is not flat.”

“What’s that? Did we hear you correctly? Are you trying to tell
us that the earth is round which means it is floating in space?”

“That is true, and my discovery lies locked behind the door
marked the earth is round.”

“This is absurd! Who are you to come in here and tell us that we
are wrong? We are not interested in your theory because we say the
earth is flat [and since we are wiser than you, more learned than you,
more educated than you, you must be wrong], so why discuss this
matter further. Besides, our chief medicine man chanted the
incantation that caused the darkness to vanish. Thank you very much
for coming out to give us your explanation but we are not interested
in discussing this matter further because we know, beyond a shadow
of doubt, that the earth is flat.”

This is the second half of the primary problem. The fact that a
theory such as the belief that the earth is flat can hermetically seal
knowledge that prevents our discovering the invariable laws of the
solar system which, in turn, prevents the knowledge necessary to land
men on the moon. Children were taught this by their parents who
had received this knowledge from their parents who were instructed by
the medicine man who was considered the wisest man of his time.
Since there was no way the knowledge of the medicine man could be
proven false because no one knew any different, and since he was
considered the wisest man of his time, his conclusion that the earth
was flat brooked no opposition. Consequently, when those who were
judged inferior in wisdom or knowledge disagreed with the medicine
man, they were rejected. When an upstart scientist came along who
concluded that the earth was round after making certain observations,
how was it possible to get others to agree with him when they couldn’t
follow his reasoning which compelled them to compare him, not his
knowledge, to the medicine man, to the professors and teachers whose
wisdom and knowledge could not be impugned. To help you see how
easy it is for a dogmatic theory to prevent scientific investigation let
us once again return, in imagination, to the time when man knew
nothing about the solar system, and listen to a conversation.

“Say, Joshua; do you believe the earth is flat or do you go along
with my theory that it is round?”

“Even though most of mankind agrees that it is flat, what
difference does it really make what I think?” said our philosophical
friend. “The shape of the earth is certainly not going to be affected or
changed no matter what my opinion is, right?”

“That is true enough, but if the earth is really round isn’t it
obvious that just as long as we think otherwise we are prevented from
discovering those things that depend on this knowledge for their
discovery, consequently, it does make a difference. How much so we
are not in the position to know just yet but thousands of years hence,
perhaps in the twentieth century, there may be all kinds of scientific
achievements attributed directly to knowing the true shape of the
earth, such as landing men on the moon which may never be possible
without first knowing the true shape of the earth.”

<snip>

Since my discovery would bring about the greatest change in all
of history, it appeared that this man would be willing to let me explain
my findings. By convincing him on the phone that it was now
possible to put a permanent end to all war as a result of my discovery,
he agreed to meet me on a Sunday afternoon in Washington, D.C.
Our conversation went as follows:

“I’m really not a scientist, Mr. Lessans, and in all probability you
should be talking to someone else. Your claims are absolutely
fantastic, but I want you to know that even though I wrote an article
about science, I am not a scientist. Besides, after you hung up I
became more skeptical of claims such as yours because they not only
sound impossible but somewhat ridiculous in view of man’s nature.
Frankly, I don’t believe your claims are possible, but I am willing to
listen if it doesn’t take too long and if I can see some truth to your
explanation; I do have another engagement but I can devote at least
one hour. Would you get right on with it?” I then told him the story
about the earth being flat and he smiled at this, and then told him
that a theory exists regarding man’s nature that is accepted as true by
98% of mankind, and I pointed out that this theory is actually
preventing the decline and fall of all evil because it has closed a door
to a vast storehouse of genuine knowledge.

“I will be as brief as possible, Mr. Johnson, but in order for me to
reveal my discovery it is absolutely necessary that I first show you its
hiding place because they are related to each other.”

“What is this theory?” he asked.

“You see, Mr. Johnson, most people believe consciously or
unconsciously that man’s will is free.”

“What’s that? Did I hear you correctly? Are you trying to tell me
that man’s will is not free?”

“That is absolutely right, Mr. Johnson. I don’t believe it; I know
this for a mathematical fact. My discovery lies locked behind the door
marked Man’s Will is Not Free, just like the invariable laws of the
solar system were concealed behind the door marked The Earth is
Round — until some upstart scientist opened it for a thorough
investigation.”

“I have always believed it to be free, but what difference does it
make what I think; the will of man is certainly not going to be
affected by my opinion, right?”

“That part is true enough (do you recall the comparison), but if
the will of man is definitely not free isn’t it obvious that just as long
as we think otherwise we will be prevented from discovering those
things that depend on this knowledge for their discovery,
consequently, it does make a difference. The opinion of our ancestors
that the earth was flat could never change its actual shape, but just as
long as the door marked “The Earth Is Round” was never opened
thoroughly for an investigation by scientists capable of perceiving the
undeniable but involved relations hidden there, how were we ever to
discover the laws that allow us now to land men on the moon?”

“Your door was opened many times through the years by some of
the most profound thinkers and never did they come up with any
discoveries to change the world.”

“It is true that determinism was investigated by people who were
presumed profound thinkers, but in spite of their profoundness none
of them had the capacity to perceive the law that was hidden there.
Most people do not even know it is a theory since it is preached by
religion, government, even education as if it is an absolute fact.”

“Mr. Lessans, I don’t know what it is you think you have
discovered but whatever it is, as far as I personally am concerned, it
cannot be valid because I am convinced that man’s will is free. Thank
you very much for coming out but I’m not interested in discussing
this matter any further.” And he would not let me continue.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How many times have I asked people to ask questions, so I could respond, but all I get are attacks.

Originally Posted by Seebs

Zero. There has been no occasion on which all you got was attacks.

I'm not talking about you personally. I am talking generally. Every other post is an attack on me, and don't deny it.

Originally Posted by Seebs

I have given you several simple direct questions, and you've never answered any of them. I tried it when you first started, I tried over the last week...

I've asked several simple and direct questions. You haven't even responded to those posts.

Just a a reminder, here are my two most recent questions:

1. What does "undeniable" mean? Is something "undeniable" if people deny it?

Undeniable means that which cannot be denied. Anything can be denied if not understood. Therefore, denying something does not necessarily make it wrong. In this case, it will just hold up the works in getting this genuine discovery brought to light.

Originally Posted by Seebs

2. Where did Lessans offer a definition of "greater satisfaction"?

I told you that his definition is explained in Chapter One. You cannot pull out one sentence and say "This is it", because it will look like a tautology, which it is not.

[LadyShea]

without people knowing about this discovery, it will remain hidden. If Lessans is right, then it is imperative that I share this knowledge.

Then put it all on a website or blog, peacegirl. Make it available to anyone and everyone, and make yourself available to answer questions.

You hid it yourself by removing the .pdf from the web and then removing the Google Book access, and now the MP3 is only going to be sold on a CD.

Put it out there for anyone to find and your chances of the right person or people finding it are increased. You seem to suck at choosing who to introduce it to

[thedoc]

That you are not sharing it freely makes it appear that you do not really believe what is claimed. If you were to share it freely and, it does what you believe it will, you would not need to depend on selling books to make money, your advice would be sought after by everyone. But you are keeping it to yourself as if its just too precious to share, or not really what you believe, so you are stuck with it and it is doing nobody any good. The only good reason to hide it like this, is to trick people into buying it, before thay can figure out that it is worthless drivel.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I can kick back and enjoy life and pass on this knowledge at the same time. Knowledge means nothing unless it can be applied, and without people knowing about this discovery, it will remain hidden. If Lessans is right, then it is imperative that I share this knowledge. Thank you for being concerned for my welfare. I am seeing a different side of you that I didn't know existed, and its refreshing.

Nobody thinks what you are presenting is knowledge. They think it is the babblings of a deranged mind. The more you try to convince people it is knowledge the more they will think you are crazy. If the outcome is inevitable then you have done more than enough. You have published.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Then put it all on a website or blog, peacegirl. Make it available to anyone and everyone, and make yourself available to answer questions.

You hid it yourself by removing the .pdf from the web and then removing the Google Book access, and now the MP3 is only going to be sold on a CD.

Put it out there for anyone to find and your chances of the right person or people finding it are increased. You seem to suck at choosing who to introduce it to

I'm doing that LadyShea, but it takes time to get a website up. I just paid for hosting and I have to contact this guy who said he would help me for very little cost. I felt the need to take it offline because of the way people were corrupting it. It was too difficult for me. As far as who to introduce it to, I haven't done anything except be on these forums. I will be sending the Mp3 CD of Beyond the Framework of Modern Thought to as many people as I can, along with the book. I believe it will be well received, but it will take people who have the intellectual capacity to understand the principles. That's why I came here but it's not working out.

[LadyShea]

I told you how to get it free way back. You could have had a free blog in 10 minutes.

[Spacemonkey]

Do you have any intention at all of moving onto Chapter 2, or do you just intend to continue weaselling out of answering questions?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by thedoc

That you are not sharing it freely makes it appear that you do not really believe what is claimed. If you were to share it freely and, it does what you believe it will, you would not need to depend on selling books to make money, your advice would be sought after by everyone. But you are keeping it to yourself as if its just too precious to share, or not really what you believe, so you are stuck with it and it is doing nobody any good. The only good reason to hide it like this, is to trick people into buying it, before thay can figure out that it is worthless drivel.

I need capital in order to market this book. People do not appreciate, respect, or take seriously books that are not purchased. That being said, the CD costs very little and I am so happy I have his voice on audio. The only bad part is that I noticed in certain parts it gets a little softer and then louder again. I'm sure that I can get that corrected, but it will take more money. For now, it's good enough and it sounds like he could have done his recording in a studio, when all he had was a tape recorder and the best recording tapes he could find at that time. If you think it's drivel, then don't consider buying it. Eventually, this knowledge is going to spread. How do I know that? Because it's a genuine discovery.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Do you have any intention at all of moving onto Chapter 2, or do you just intend to continue weaselling out of answering questions?

Spacemonkey, I'm not suicidal. I'm sorry. I wanted to but I've lost the desire. The thought of getting even more vitriol and animosity is too much to bear. Why can't you tell me what you got from Chapter One, if anything?

[LadyShea]

I felt the need to take it offline because of the way people were corrupting it.

What do you mean "corrupting" it? That's a very strange word to choose for a non-religious work.

If you mean criticizing it, tearing it apart, making fun of it, then yeah that's what happens. If a million people read it then you have a million chances that someone will say something about it you don't like, or read it wrong, or ridicule it.

But if you keep it hidden because you fear "corruption", then you have no chance at all of finding that one person who might agree with it.

As far as who to introduce it to, I haven't done anything except be on these forums.

Exactly my point. You suck at choosing who to introduce to because you've chosen what, half a dozen forums? And none of them have any people that agree that Lessans was on to something.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I told you how to get it free way back. You could have had a free blog in 10 minutes.

But how will I be able to direct my blog to people who will find it? I should be doing something more than spending so much time in this forum.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Spacemonkey, I'm not suicidal. I'm sorry. I wanted to but I've lost the desire.

Then why are you still here? You can't defend or explain Chapter 1, and you refuse to move on to Chapter 2 or answer my questions on vision (as you said you would). So what are you doing here?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Why can't you tell me what you got from Chapter One, if anything?

Other than that Lessans never defined "greater satisfaction"? Nothing of any value I'm afraid, though it was quite entertaining.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

What do you mean "corrupting" it? That's a very strange word to choose for a non-religious work.

It was corrupted because everything was misconstrued and taken out of context, especially when he urged people not to read the book in the middle. So what did people do? The exact opposite.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

If you mean criticizing it, tearing it apart, making fun of it, then yeah that's what happens. If a million people read it then you have a million chances that someone will say something about it you don't like, or read it wrong, or ridicule it.

I can't handle it. It hurts too much. People can criticize it in their own homes but I'm not going to let people take advantage and ruin Lessans' reputation, and in so doing, hurt our chances of achieving world peace.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

But if you keep it hidden because you fear "corruption", then you have no chance at all of finding that one person who might agree with it.

I don't think that's true. I know that there will be people who will criticize this work, but I will not display the book publicly for people to mock. It's over. I thought it was a good idea, but I would never do it again.

As far as who to introduce it to, I haven't done anything except be on these forums.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Exactly my point. You suck at choosing who to introduce to because you've chosen what, half a dozen forums? And none of them have any people that agree that Lessans was on to something.

How can you blame me for not knowing who to introduce his work to? If I did, don't you think I would have done it? I am not a mind reader LadyShea. I am actually shocked at the reception I got on these forums. I kept thinking maybe another forum would be different. Each forum had their own theme such as Nietzscheism, objectivism, capitalism, atheism, etc. I know exactly how my father felt when he was rejected for no other reason than he was an unknown. I have to keep moving forward and not let people's words sting.

[Spacemonkey]

Who are you kidding? We all know that if you ever manage to leave here you're just going to find another forum where you'll start this whole charade all over again exactly as you've done every time before.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I need capital in order to market this book. People do not appreciate, respect, or take seriously books that are not purchased. That being said, the CD costs very little and I am so happy I have his voice on audio. The only bad part is that I noticed in certain parts it gets a little softer and then louder again. I'm sure that I can get that corrected, but it will take more money. For now, it's good enough and it sounds like he could have done his recording in a studio, when all he had was a tape recorder and the best recording tapes he could find at that time. If you think it's drivel, then don't consider buying it. Eventually, this knowledge is going to spread. How do I know that? Because it's a genuine discovery.

You think I value Thomas' Paine's Age of Reason because I purchased the copy I have? You think I respect Shakespeare more because I bought a book? You think I take Carl Sagan's ideas less seriously because the books I have of his were gifts? People appreciate and respect content, not the monetary value of the paper and binding.

You have it all backwards.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Then why are you still here? You can't defend or explain Chapter 1

You never let me.

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

...and you refuse to move on to Chapter 2 or answer my questions on vision (as you said you would). So what are you doing here?

Not sure. I want to make the break because it's doing me no good.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Why can't you tell me what you got from Chapter One, if anything?

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Other than that Lessans never defined "greater satisfaction"? Nothing of any value I'm afraid, though it was quite entertaining.

What a cop out!! You of all people I'm disappointed in. I don't think you read it. You couldn't have read it and given me answer like that.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You think I value Thomas' Paine's Age of Reason because I purchased the copy I have? You think I respect Shakespeare more because I bought a book? You think I take Carl Sagan's ideas less seriously because the books I have of his were gifts? People appreciate and respect content, not the monetary value of the paper and binding.

You have it all backwards.

You might be right on that count, but I still am going to sell the Mp3 for $11.95. It's worth every penny and I need to make up some of the money I put into this. I live on a very low budget. If I made money I could also build my other business, which is an offshoot of my dad's book. You know, Playing it Safe with Mr. See-More Safety.

[Vivisectus]

You can go on lots of forums, leave a short introductory message, and a link to your blog. Go to related blogs and do the same in their comments pages. Get a facebook page, and try to find people with related interests.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

But how will I be able to direct my blog to people who will find it? I should be doing something more than spending so much time in this forum.

You put it up, then you tell people it's up and give them the link. Send a link to all of your family and friends or whomever is in your email contacts list. You go back to the forums like you've already spoken to and say "I have a blog now here it is", put up a Facebook page, hell make a YouTube video.

Go around to other sites and blogs and let people know you have a Revolution in Thought here at your blog.

Instead of spending an hour here crying about we're meanies you spend an hour learning to use social media and search engines.

LOL Viv beat me by like 1 minute