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  #51  
Old 10-19-2022, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Originally Posted by disobey View Post

Yes, I did forget to mention the first part. Sure, it takes outside heat to break the H2O molecule into hydrogen and oxygen. But however it is done, that action, by itself, produces heat.
It doesn't "produce heat" That's what you keep getting completely wrong. Breaking the hydrogen oxygen bonds CONSUMES heat, and a lot of it. The mixture that results is cooler than it would have been, had the molecules not broken apart.
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  #52  
Old 10-19-2022, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, if you're truly ignorant enough to believe your claims, you can easily test them for yourself.

It's not like it's that hard to get your hands on an oxy-acetylene torch, which generates temperatures much higher than what you claim is necessary.


Do get back to us with the results!
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  #53  
Old 10-19-2022, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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So, now you are going to start being an asshole too.
No. I'm pointing out an obvious truth. You're incredibly ignorant, yet you seem to think that your opinion on things you demonstrably know nothing about should be taken seriously. You absolutely will not listen when anyone tries to correct your mistakes, no matter how politely. So you're not just ignorant, you're willfully ignorant.


Quote:
Now, is it that you think that sound traveling through water being considered to be a chemical reaction is untrue?
Because a chemical reaction, by definition involves a rearrangement of chemical bonds, forming new substances. Sound traveling through water does not change or rearrange any chemical bonds. Saying, therefore, that sound traveling through water is a chemical reaction thereby demonstrates that you have no idea what a chemical reaction is.


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If you are in an environment that is 4600 degrees, that is a relative state.
No. No it is not.

Einstein's theories [there are two different theories of Relativity, by the way, the Special and the General] have nothing to do with temperature. As anyone with a high school-level understanding of physics knows.

Einstein's General Theory of Relativity describe how the force of gravity is due to the curvature of spacetime.

Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity describes how physical laws are the same in all inertial reference frames, and how the speed of light is a universal constant, regardless of how observers are moving relative to each other.

Neither of the theories has anything to do with temperature being "relative."


Quote:
Anything that happened in that state would have that state as its starting point. If oxygen atoms and hydrogen atoms split apart or recombined at that temperature, the heat that they gave off would be added to the 4600 degree environment. I can't put it any more simply than that.
That has exactly nothing to do with either theory of Relativity, and more to the point, does not establish that temperature (a measure of thermal energy) is somehow "relative."

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Next, I never said anything about a steam explosion. Let alone that it was a chemical reaction.
Yes you did, on both counts. You're just too ignorant to know what a steam explosion is.

You said that when water is sprayed on a hot-enough fire, it explodes. That is true. It's called a steam explosion, because the water flashes to steam. You also said that afterward, the gases "recombine into H2O" which would be a chemical reaction.

You're doubly wrong there, because you describe a steam explosion as a chemical reaction when it isn't.


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Sure, some of the water will instantly turn to steam. But that isn't what causes the explosion. What causes the explosion is some of the water molecules being split into hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
Incorrect. That is not what causes a steam explosion. But if it were, that would be a chemical reaction! So again, you're doubly wrong. Besides, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, dissociation of water into hydrogen and oxygen is an endothermic process, not an exothermic process.

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It is the same exact thing that goes on in the Space Shuttle engines. Only in reverse.
No, it isn't. A steam explosion is a physical reaction, not a chemical reaction.

Quote:
Do you disagree on that fact too?
I disagree, because it's not a fact; it's a gross misunderstanding of well-understood and easily-verified phenomena. Something that you'd understand if only you had a high-school-level understanding of physics and chemistry -- something you could learn for yourself by actually doing relevant experiments.

1. I make a point. You counter that point. I counter your counterargument. Then I get insults. Sound familiar?

2. You lucked out. I can no longer find the website that said that sound traveling through water was a chemical reaction. The closest I could come was various things concerning sonochemical reactions. Which wasn't quite the same thing. Though if it is of any consequence, (which I take for you it won't be) sound travels faster in salt water than in fresh water. That has to do with the chemestry of the water.

3. I wasn't speaking about anything having to do with Einstein's theory of relativity. (At least not initially) The point I was making was that a chamber heated to 4600 degrees would be just that. Nothing more. A particular state of existence. A particular reality. (How it got to be that way doesn't matter) Anything happening within that state, plus or minus, would be happening at that particular temperature-reality-relative state.

4. See answer #3.

5. You called it a steam explosion. I didn't. With a magnesium fire, it is hot enough to actually break the molecular bond of H2O. You think water just turning to steam can explode? Try turning water into free hydrogen and oxygen atoms. You will see a real bang. Next, if a chemical being created isn't a chemical reaction, nothing is.

6. Now you're just talking bullshit. First you say that H2O being created isn't a chemical reaction. Then you say that if it did happen, it would be a chemical reaction. If this is the level of your lengthy discourse, go bother somebody else. I don't have the time for it.

7. Is steam a chemical? If so, then what happens in the Space Shuttle engines is a chemical reaction.

8. My education aside, you haven't successfully refuted anything I said. Maybe you have in your own mind. But a minds reality and real reality is often two different things.
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  #54  
Old 10-19-2022, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

Gods, it's like trying to teach algebra to a dog. But one stands out:

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Originally Posted by disobey View Post
Though if it is of any consequence, (which I take for you it won't be) sound travels faster in salt water than in fresh water. That has to do with the chemestry of the water.
No, you willful ignoramus -- it's because salt water is denser than fresh water, and more resistant to compression! It's the same reason that the speed that sound travels in water is strongly temperature-dependent. Above 74 degrees C, sound travels slower through water as the temperature of the water increases, because the density of the water is decreasing as the temperature rises. (Below 74 degrees C, sound travels faster through water as the temperature rises, because of the greater rate of collision between water molecules as the temperature rises.) Or do you really think that the cooler water is somehow chemically different from the hotter water?



And once again, as has been repeatedly pointed out, you're free to do the experiments yourself to prove your claims. You can buy all the necessary equipment to do so at your nearest Lowes. Heck, you do it, and I'll personally nominate you for a well-deserved Nobel Prize!
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  #55  
Old 10-19-2022, 02:08 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

My favorite part is that this is literally just high school chemistry.
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  #56  
Old 10-19-2022, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
In a word: no. Take a chemistry course and try it for yourself, if you doubt me.

It's a simple experiment, one that you can do in any high school or college chemistry lab. Your proposal does not and cannot work because the proposed procedure consumes more energy than it generates - by quite a lot, actually.
That’s because of inefficiencies in the process though right?

The energy of formation and dissolution of the bonds is the same, so if everything were perfectly efficient you could break even.

Necessarily, this can’t create more energy.

The fact that lots of energy is lost from the system makes it way shittier, but even without that it would only break even.

Apologies if you’ve already covered this, I’m reading the thread now. I just think that’s a more succinct answer as to why disobey’s setup can’t possible work.
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  #57  
Old 10-19-2022, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Originally Posted by disobey View Post
But as things stand, as far as I'm concerned, an H2O molecule breaking apart into hydrogen and oxygen atoms creates its own heat. And it absolutely creates a lot of heat when hydrogen and oxygen atoms combine to create H2O. Feel free to disagree all you want.
Disobey is a fucking dipshit, but if heat were produced in both directions of 2H2 + O2 —->2H2O, his system would make energy.

Chemistry as we know it wouldn’t exist :tmgrin:
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  #58  
Old 10-19-2022, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

I should have specified the difference between total energy and usable energy, to be sure. But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
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  #59  
Old 10-19-2022, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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You know, you really are a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

...

So, now you are going to start being an asshole too.
So, everyone you talk to appears to be an asshole. What's the common factor here? :thinkup: It must be this forum! And you're still here, therefore you're an asshole!
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  #60  
Old 10-19-2022, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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I should have specified the difference between total energy and usable energy, to be sure. But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
You should see the part where he made up his own biology terminology. Put on your crash helmet because you're about to face desk.
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  #61  
Old 10-19-2022, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Gods, it's like trying to teach algebra to a dog.
:nod:

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But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
:sadnod:

This is, however, shaping up to be one of the greatest threads I have seen.
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  #62  
Old 10-19-2022, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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I should have specified the difference between total energy and usable energy, to be sure. But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
It was funny when he talked of combusted water though. :tmgrin:

It’s all combusted after all. But I like the idea of extra combusted.

I find his dumbshit physics less offensive then his overt racism.

If only he were as intelligent as a slime mold, I think you could maybe teach him.
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  #63  
Old 10-19-2022, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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I find his dumbshit physics less offensive then his overt racism.
It's more palatable to take apart the dumbshitness of his physics, but I feel that it usefully represents the dumbshitness of his racism.
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  #64  
Old 10-19-2022, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Too long have we been oppressed by the :airquote: "Laws" of thermodynamics, probably written by Jews! Smash this cult and be free! :shakejew:
You, ARI, But, Fragment and JoeP can all "stick it." (And no doubt you know where) I asked anybody reading my thread to give me some reasons why it wouldn't work. And all I got was bullshit as a reply. Do I need to start a thread and ask if there is anybody at this forum that isn't a troll?
There was a hint in there as to why it won't work, which The Lone Ranger explicated a bit -- not that you understood either the hint or the explanation, you absolute shitwit.

And are you actually threatening to start a new thread? Oh no, please don't embarrass yourself again, cumdumpster!
You are stupid and insulting too. I think I've had enough of you too. Welcome to ignore land.
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  #65  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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You could start by looking on Wikipedia at the difference between exothermic and endothermic reactions.

If you're trying to get Hydrogen, so you can burn it somehow (using it in a fuel cell is a different form of burning) to release energy, then the product of the burning is water (steam, usually). You can think of water as the ash from the fire when you burn hydrogen.

You're not also going to release energy in the process of splitting hydrogen from water in the first place. The universe doesn't work like that. Hydrogen, in this context, is just a means of storing energy you got from some other source - from wind turbines, or burning coal, or whatever.

Hydrogen is a very inefficient way of storing electrical energy. If you use electricity to charge a battery, and later discharge that battery, you can get as much as 95% of the original energy back - the 5% or so is wasted in heat in the charging and discharging processes. By contrast, the best currently available methods of storing electrical energy in the form of hydrogen, waste about half of the original energy by the time the cycle is complete.

This is why the hype around hydrogen powered cars is exactly that: hype. Most hydrogen made today comes from burning fossil fuels: it creates less carbon dioxide if you just burn those fossil fuels directly in the cars. If and when we have a superabundance of renewable energy from solar panels, wind turbines, or similar, then hydrogen powered vehicles might become a sensible option - could be useful for long distance trucks or aircraft, where battery-powered versions have nowhere near the range, or carrying capacity of the current, fossil-fuel powered, versions.
You seem to have gone off on a tangent. I wasn't saying anything about using hydrogen for anything. Reread my thread. What I started out saying that at around 3600 F, around 2% of any H2O molecules will disassociate into hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

Next, if you want to talk about storing energy, a better thread for that would be the one in which I discussed using solar panels. As for hydrogen itself, it is a load of crap for use in cars. Because as you said, it takes too much energy to create. Another problem I have heard of from using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is that it burns too hot.

Though as far as electrolysis goes to create hydrogen, I bandied about some ideas in a book I wrote long ago. One of the ideas I came up with was using permanent magnets as a source of extra power during electrolysis to more efficiently break apart water into hydrogen and oxygen. Though not long ago, out of curiosity, I decided to look that process up. It turns out somebody already patented such an idea nearly 100 years ago. And apparently it doesn't work. Because as far as I know, such a process isn't used in any electrolysis. I don't know why anybody would go through the trouble patenting something that doesn't work.

You said disassociating water at high temperature would release heat. The very first part of my post addressed that. You have it completely backwards. Disassociating water is an endothermic process.
Exothermic, endothermic, you're missing the point. As I pointed out with what I said about the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen in the Space Shuttle engines, the combining of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms creates a LOT of heat. It's true, I'm no scientist. But it seems to me that if it creates that much heat when the molecules form, it should also create as much heat when they break apart.

Now as in the process I spoke of, the heat for the molecules to break apart would have to come from an outside source. It would have to extract that heat from the environment they are in. But at some point, the heat given off by the molecules breaking apart would have to exceed the 4600 degree environment they are in. And when they recombine into water molecules, it certainly does. Because the Space Shuttle engines operate at 6000 degrees. Also, the liquid hydrogen that fuels the engines is -423 degrees. And the liquid oxygen is -297 degrees. And yet, the engines still operate at 6000 degrees.
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  #66  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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something you could learn for yourself by actually doing relevant experiments.
This would involve a narcissist being proved wrong, which is not something a narcissist has the mental fortitude to withstand.
Why don't you just piss off already. Or join in on the conversation. Does 2% of H2O disassociate into hydrogen and oxygen atoms at around 3600 degrees? True. Did the space shuttle engines operate at 6000 degrees from combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms into H2O? True.
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  #67  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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As has been repeatedly pointed out, if you're truly ignorant enough to believe your claims, you can easily test them for yourself.

It's not like it's that hard to get your hands on an oxy-acetylene torch, which generates temperatures much higher than what you claim is necessary.


Do get back to us with the results!

Do the experiments? To get the supplies, do they take food stamps? Just how rich do you think I am. Also, the chamber alone would be quite complicated. I don't know what material they used in the core of a nuclear powered rocket, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't afford it. Also, an oxyacetylene torch only burns at around 3480 degrees. At least 4600 degrees would be necessary for such an experiment. The only thing that can get hot enough is what the Space Shuttle engines use. Hydrogen and oxygen. And even then, I doubt if such a torch to heat the required chamber is commercially available. Besides, I'm not a scientist. If you would like to see such an experiment done, you would be better off contacting some engineering or physics department of some university.
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  #68  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

In high school you do the experiments and it's free. You just have to show up.

Man I am so glad I finished high school. I can buy as many oxy-acetylene torches as I want.
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  #69  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

A big part of the problem is that disobey apparently doesn't know the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius. [Here's a clue: you can buy commercial welding torches that get hotter than 6000 degrees F. Arc welders can generate even higher temperatures.]
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  #70  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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I'm no scientist.
The hell you say.

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A big part of the problem is that disobey apparently doesn't know the difference between Fahrenheit and Celsius.
Or his own welfare-collecting ass and a hole in the ground.
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  #71  
Old 10-20-2022, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Gods, it's like trying to teach algebra to a dog. But one stands out:

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Though if it is of any consequence, (which I take for you it won't be) sound travels faster in salt water than in fresh water. That has to do with the chemestry of the water.
No, you willful ignoramus -- it's because salt water is denser than fresh water, and more resistant to compression! It's the same reason that the speed that sound travels in water is strongly temperature-dependent. Above 74 degrees C, sound travels slower through water as the temperature of the water increases, because the density of the water is decreasing as the temperature rises. (Below 74 degrees C, sound travels faster through water as the temperature rises, because of the greater rate of collision between water molecules as the temperature rises.) Or do you really think that the cooler water is somehow chemically different from the hotter water?



And once again, as has been repeatedly pointed out, you're free to do the experiments yourself to prove your claims. You can buy all the necessary equipment to do so at your nearest Lowes. Heck, you do it, and I'll personally nominate you for a well-deserved Nobel Prize!

I never said anything about how dense the water was. All I said is that the chemistry of the water was different. If the chemistry of the water effects how sound travels through it, then chemistry must be at the heart of sound traveling through it. Hence, a chemical reaction. (possibly)

For some reason, you think I am full of shit on this matter. But I'm not here to bullshit anybody. I myself of course know that sound traveling through water is a mechanical process. But one time I just happened to be watching some science show. I don't remember why they said what they did, but they said that sound traveling through water was a chemical reaction. Possibly it is at some fundamental level. Being as incredulous as you, I decided to look it up myself. It was quite a number of years ago. I did indeed find a science based website that said that sound traveling through water was a chemical reaction. You can believe it or not. Unfortunately, I can't find that website any more.
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  #72  
Old 10-20-2022, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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I should have specified the difference between total energy and usable energy, to be sure. But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
Piss off dickweed. Does 2% of H2O disassociate into hydrogen and oxygen atoms at around 3600 degrees? Yes. Did the Space Shuttle engines run at 6000 degrees from hydrogen and oxygen atoms combining into H2O? Yes. Make of it what you will.

Last edited by disobey; 10-20-2022 at 11:33 PM.
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  #73  
Old 10-20-2022, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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For some reason, you think I am full of shit
it's a headscratcher
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  #74  
Old 10-20-2022, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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I should have specified the difference between total energy and usable energy, to be sure. But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
You should see the part where he made up his own biology terminology. Put on your crash helmet because you're about to face desk.
Look at the taxonomic names given to a few of the species of finch on the Galapagos Islands. They all came from one species. There is Certhidea olivacea, Geospiza heliobates and Geospiza pallida. Tell me, were those names written in stone somewhere? Or did some scientist make those names up.
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  #75  
Old 10-20-2022, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Smashing Fossil Fuels.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger View Post
I should have specified the difference between total energy and usable energy, to be sure. But at this point, it seems to be like trying to educate a mushroom, so just not worth the effort.
Piss off dickweed. Does 2% of H2O disassociate at around 3600 degrees? Yes. Did the Space Shuttle engines run at 6000 degrees from hydrogen and oxygen atoms combining into H2O? Yes. Make of it what you will.
:giggle: Hey cobslobber, how are LOX and LH2 made?
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