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Old 09-24-2020, 08:59 PM
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Default Post-Trump Democracy

It's hard for me to imagine a post-Trump future as we close in on a potential civil war, but the Democrats actually gave me a tiny glimmer of hope yesterday with H.R.8363. It's nice to fantasize about a timeline where there's a peaceful transition of power to the Democrats and all these loopholes Trump exploited are sewed up.

Fact Sheet
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

I wish I could look at that Sheet. It probably has Facts on it. Those things are so rare an precious these days, it's no wonder the owners don't want to share.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
It's hard for me to imagine a post-Trump future as we close in on a potential civil war, but the Democrats actually gave me a tiny glimmer of hope yesterday with H.R.8363. It's nice to fantasize about a timeline where there's a peaceful transition of power to the Democrats and all these loopholes Trump exploited are sewed up.
As much as I hate to interfere with a good fantasy, I will so interfere.

These aren't loopholes that Trump has exploited. These are basic norms of democracy. A democratic society is not simply one that has laws that are democratic in form. There are many countries with laws and government institutions that are democratic in form, but that are not free or democratic societies in any sense of the word in which it would be understood in the West. Russia, Turkey, Singapore, Serbia, probably Hungary nowadays. These are sometimes called illiberal democracies or authoritarian democracies. And the US. A democratic society also has a shared set of political values and norms that elites uphold because voters expect and demand that they do. Political trust in institutions is a large part of this.

That is what Trump has destroyed with the GOP's assistance. He has no interest in those values because they do not enrich him, and are often obstacles to enriching himself. The GOP has no interest in them because they are a party in terminal decline. Trump has signaled to his supporters that these things are of no value because they only serve to empower non-white people at the expense of white people.

Congress cannot fix the damage that Trump has done. The only chance of restoring these values is a thorough de-Trumpification campaign and reconciliation process, and an internal reconstruction. It must be bold, rapid, and overwhelming. Which is why I do not have confidence that Democrats will be able to do it. I think it's much more likely that Democrats will think that winning the White House and control of Congress will simply return things to normal, and will try to carry on as if it did, i.e. acting like Republicans have any interest whatsoever in government beyond advancing white supremacy.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Originally Posted by Oxymaroon View Post
I wish I could look at that Sheet. It probably has Facts on it. Those things are so rare an precious these days, it's no wonder the owners don't want to share.
Does this help?

fact_sheet.pdf
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

Went to Thomas to see the text of the bill.
I forgot that it takes a couple days before the text gets posted.

It is not uncommon for a bill to say different shit than what the politicos say it says, by the time it gets published.

Though I'm all for anything that can prevent another T rump
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Congress cannot fix the damage that Trump has done. The only chance of restoring these values is a thorough de-Trumpification campaign and reconciliation process, and an internal reconstruction. It must be bold, rapid, and overwhelming. Which is why I do not have confidence that Democrats will be able to do it. I think it's much more likely that Democrats will think that winning the White House and control of Congress will simply return things to normal, and will try to carry on as if it did, i.e. acting like Republicans have any interest whatsoever in government beyond advancing white supremacy.
Yeah, my fantasy is that the Republican Party is over, we completely overhaul our voting system to eliminate the electoral college and do ranked choice. That's the only way we're ever going to have viable third parties instead of showboating election spoilers for edgelords.

If we are stuck with two for a while, though, the Democrats should be the right wing and someone else takes the left. I almost don't care who, as long as they're actually kind of left.

Or break up the country. We're too damned big anyway. Maybe we could be a union like Europe or something, but the more I think about it, the more I think the whole concept of the US is kind of stupid anyway. I dunno, though. I haven't thought this through really beyond, "Guh, this is stupid anyway."

:eagletear:
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Congress cannot fix the damage that Trump has done. The only chance of restoring these values is a thorough de-Trumpification campaign and reconciliation process, and an internal reconstruction. It must be bold, rapid, and overwhelming. Which is why I do not have confidence that Democrats will be able to do it. I think it's much more likely that Democrats will think that winning the White House and control of Congress will simply return things to normal, and will try to carry on as if it did, i.e. acting like Republicans have any interest whatsoever in government beyond advancing white supremacy.
Yeah, my fantasy is that the Republican Party is over, we completely overhaul our voting system to eliminate the electoral college and do ranked choice. That's the only way we're ever going to have viable third parties instead of showboating election spoilers for edgelords.

If we are stuck with two for a while, though, the Democrats should be the right wing and someone else takes the left. I almost don't care who, as long as they're actually kind of left.

Or break up the country. We're too damned big anyway. Maybe we could be a union like Europe or something, but the more I think about it, the more I think the whole concept of the US is kind of stupid anyway. I dunno, though. I haven't thought this through really beyond, "Guh, this is stupid anyway."

:eagletear:
I'm sure most of us can remember when the Republicans were the Conservative party, instead of the Batshit Crazy Party.

That was before the ascension of Ronnie Ray-Gun.
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Congress cannot fix the damage that Trump has done. The only chance of restoring these values is a thorough de-Trumpification campaign and reconciliation process, and an internal reconstruction. It must be bold, rapid, and overwhelming. Which is why I do not have confidence that Democrats will be able to do it. I think it's much more likely that Democrats will think that winning the White House and control of Congress will simply return things to normal, and will try to carry on as if it did, i.e. acting like Republicans have any interest whatsoever in government beyond advancing white supremacy.
Yeah, my fantasy is that the Republican Party is over, we completely overhaul our voting system to eliminate the electoral college and do ranked choice. That's the only way we're ever going to have viable third parties instead of showboating election spoilers for edgelords.

If we are stuck with two for a while, though, the Democrats should be the right wing and someone else takes the left. I almost don't care who, as long as they're actually kind of left.

Or break up the country. We're too damned big anyway. Maybe we could be a union like Europe or something, but the more I think about it, the more I think the whole concept of the US is kind of stupid anyway. I dunno, though. I haven't thought this through really beyond, "Guh, this is stupid anyway."

:eagletear:
I'm sure most of us can remember when the Republicans were the Conservative party, instead of the Batshit Crazy Party.

That was before the ascension of Ronnie Ray-Gun.
Do you know what is insane? Except for teh geh, in the 60s/70s GOP, I would probably pass for a vaguely leftish Rockefeller Republican with a few unfortunate opinions on organized labor.
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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If we are stuck with two for a while, though, the Democrats should be the right wing and someone else takes the left. I almost don't care who, as long as they're actually kind of left.
I really wouldn’t be surprised if a New Black Panther party (Perhaps as the Wakandan party to try and shed the total character assassination whites did to the original Black Panthers) emerged as things escalate and the democratic politicians show they are ok with black deaths so long as they are promised the proverbial ball, eventually, or as long as the proper paper work is filed first.
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Old 09-25-2020, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Yeah, my fantasy is that the Republican Party is over,
It's been imploding for so long, it's already a white dwarf; the only stage left is black hole.
Will there be enough voting system left to overhaul?
Quote:
eliminate the electoral college and do ranked choice.
That would have been a good start about fifty years ago. Nixon wasn't sufficient warning???
Plus that, before you can have political parties that actually represent the political spectrum, the top level offices must also be opened to the general public - you know, ambulance drivers, bank clerks and plumbers - not just lawyers, moguls and media celebrities. Plus that, you have to get rid of the expensive hype and hoopla and the ridiculous financing of election campaigns.

How about candidates by random selection? Like jury duty. You sign up to the party that best represents your views and a list is made of the membership of each party. Every year, half of the house of representatives is replaced. A name is drawn from each party hat in each district. Those are the candidates for that seat. They have a series of speeches, town hall meetings, press conferences and debates - available on public tv, radio and print media in that district. The electorate chooses one and sends that person to the capitol (the new one, In Lincoln Nebraska - Build it out on the fringe, where it won't cause too much traffic congestion. Actually, I'd be happier to eliminate parties and elections and just select government randomly form the citizenry.)
Each congressperson only has to serve two years, so as not to disrupt their real life too much, and so none of them have time form cliques and accrue too much influence.

Quote:
If we are stuck with two for a while, though, the Democrats should be the right wing and someone else takes the left. I almost don't care who, as long as they're actually kind of left.
Last i checked, there were fifty-odd registered political parties in the US. Some of them would be perfectly viable - and rarin't'go - if the wall of established money and power didn't make it impossible for them.
(and some are thugs, fanatics and crackpots, I know)

Quote:
Or break up the country. We're too damned big anyway.
I've long thought that north America needs reorganizing into eight or ten regional entities....
Uh, better make that six: quite a lot of the continent will be uninhabitable soon.

And I was having such a nice fantasy!


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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Congress cannot fix the damage that Trump has done. The only chance of restoring these values is a thorough de-Trumpification campaign and reconciliation process, and an internal reconstruction. It must be bold, rapid, and overwhelming.
I'm very much inclined to agree that that would have to happen even before electoral reform (though electoral reform should be on their platform)

Quote:
Which is why I do not have confidence that Democrats will be able to do it.
They won't even consider trying. They think Bernie Sanders is too ambitious.
Quote:
Democrats will think that winning the White House and control of Congress will simply return things to normal....
They can probably win on the promise of returning to normal - if the people believe it. Nobody wants to acknowledge that normalcy is as dead as the grey whale.

Hey! here's a thought: Suppose you just send all the politicians on sabbatical for two years? Also the politically appointed heads of government agencies. Then let the civil service do whatever damage control needs doing, make whatever repairs need making.

Last edited by Oxymaroon; 09-25-2020 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

Oh look, its your LIV post...
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

:tear:
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Old 09-25-2020, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

I read The People, No, by Thomas Frank last week and now I really wish there was a resurgence of the late 19th century People's Party. I've been unemployed for a few weeks but even for a few weeks prior to that I had done almost nothing 24x7 besides eat, sleep, and consume political content (two days ago was a whole day of Yanis Varoufakis), so I can safely say I am some undetermined variety of Marxist socialist now. I've always been vaguely anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist but I think I can articulate why now. Anyway it does all seem a bit precious to be getting so deeply into politics and economics at a time when the world is on the precipice of total destruction but so far it seems to be working better for me than binge watching Netflix shows.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:16 PM
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Oh look, its your LIV post...
Is that significant? I've gone ruined it now.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:26 PM
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I read The People, NoI can safely say I am some undetermined variety of Marxist socialist now.
Solidarity forever....:singing::singing:
Quote:
I've always been vaguely anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist but I think I can articulate why now. Anyway it does all seem a bit precious to be getting so deeply into politics and economics at a time when the world is on the precipice of total destruction but so far it seems to be working better for me than binge watching Netflix shows.
Well, all right, but "Solidarity for whatever time we have left" doesn't scan so well. :billybass:
The Capitalist Machiavellians knew what they were doing when they banned socialist literature from schools and disappeared the working class and blacked-out their nefarious offshore activities : by the time they got round to gut-shooting the trade unions and shitholing those banana republics, hardly anyone noticed.
BTW - if you happen to have netflix on, watch the movie Zeitgeist.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

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Oh look, its your LIV post...
Is that significant? I've gone ruined it now.
It was more significant back when there was a regular poster named livius drusus.
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:03 PM
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Did the trump fire him, too?
(I mean, of course, The Perfufflect President for all Etertiny, or the end of the world as we know it, whichever comes first.)
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

+ 22 Internets to Oxy for BillyBass.
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Old 10-22-2020, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

The USA does not elect a new President when there is turmoil.

Look at how shit FDR was, tried to pack the Court, he had to die to get a new President.
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Old 10-22-2020, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
I read The People, No, by Thomas Frank last week and now I really wish there was a resurgence of the late 19th century People's Party. I've been unemployed for a few weeks but even for a few weeks prior to that I had done almost nothing 24x7 besides eat, sleep, and consume political content (two days ago was a whole day of Yanis Varoufakis), so I can safely say I am some undetermined variety of Marxist socialist now. I've always been vaguely anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist but I think I can articulate why now. Anyway it does all seem a bit precious to be getting so deeply into politics and economics at a time when the world is on the precipice of total destruction but so far it seems to be working better for me than binge watching Netflix shows.
:popcorn:
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Old 10-22-2020, 05:51 AM
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Look at how shit FDR was, tried to pack the Court, he had to die to get a new President.
Now, there is an interesting summary of a presidency.
Look at how shit Lincoln was, went to the theater on a work-night, he had to die to get a new president.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:22 AM
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:52 PM
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Does this look like an appropriate father/son interaction to you?
Depends on whether father just said "No, I'm not buying anothere $700 cell-phone for you three months after the last one because the colour's gone out of style." or "So I slept with your little sister. So - what, you're jealous?"
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

Seems like an appropriate response to finding out your dad is Crispin Glover.
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: Post-Trump Democracy

Chuck, my Uncle Eric has a an honest to goodness Rockefeller Republican. Good guy, hates Trump with a fiery passion.

I read this article today and it gave me some hope that maybe we can pull back from fascism.


The Youth are Left and likely to stay that way

Basically a large survey found young likely voters strongly supported Biden disproportionately to older voters.

And millennials are getting old enough to be likely voters with the current fuckshit maybe inspiring and activating more of them.


Millennials remember Clinton and Obama, not just Jimmy (who I loved but was widely and incorrectly viewed as a failure)

Zoomers are coming up now.

The GOP’s demographics problem just worsens.

This is probably just more of my starry eyed optimism. In spite of my disdain for most fuctards, I remain hopeful.
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Ari (10-24-2020), Kamilah Hauptmann (10-23-2020), slimshady2357 (10-23-2020), Sock Puppet (10-23-2020), SR71 (10-23-2020)
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