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Old 01-07-2021, 10:55 AM
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Default Left, Right, and Centre

I've been meaning to start a thread to lay out some ideas I have about extremism, centrism, and socialism, and maybe engender a discussion and sharing of ideas. Last night's shennannigins and Obama's response provide the spur.

Quote:
Originally posted by Barack Obama
History will rightly remember today’s violence at the Capitol, incited by a sitting president who has continued to baselessly lie about the outcome of a lawful election, as a moment of great dishonor and shame for our nation. But we’d be kidding ourselves if we treated it as a total surprise.

For two months now, a political party and its accompanying media ecosystem has too often been unwilling to tell their followers the truth — that this was not a particularly close election and that President-Elect Biden will be inaugurated on January 20. Their fantasy narrative has spiraled further and further from reality, and it builds upon years of sown resentments. Now we’re seeing the consequences, whipped up into a violent crescendo.

Right now, Republican leaders have a choice made clear in the desecrated chambers of democracy. They can continue down this road and keep stoking the raging fires. Or they can choose reality and take the first steps toward extinguishing the flames. They can choose America.

I’ve been heartened to see many members of the President’s party speak up forcefully today. Their voices add to the examples of Republican state and local election officials in states like Georgia who’ve refused to be intimidated and have discharged their duties honorably. We need more leaders like these — right now and in the days, weeks, and months ahead as President-Elect Biden works to restore a common purpose to our politics. It’s up to all of us as Americans, regardless of party, to support him in that goal.
Note particularly how Obama expresses approval for some Republicans. And it's not just praise; Obama says we need them. That is not a message that will go down well with many on the left. It strikes me as fundamentally centrist.

But though I have found myself impelled further and ever further left by my observations and experience of the world I am trying to live in, and now would be considered by most and certainly identify myself as socialist, I think Obama is right. I am, therefore, at least in this sense, a centrist.
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  #2  
Old 01-07-2021, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Left, Right, and Centre

I think I am in general agreement.

And I am thinking of a picture something like this ...

:gnash::blame: ------------------------------- :chat: :chat: :chat: :chat: :chat: ------------------------------- :blame: (mirrored):gnash:
extreme left ------------------------------- left wing centre left centre centre right right wing ------------------------------- extreme right

The groups in the middle mostly talk to themselves but are capable of sane discussion. The lunatics at the right fringe look left and just see socialists and commies and neither can nor want to see the difference. The lunatics at the left fringe look right and just see capitalist psychopaths.

Meanwhile it's a stretchy hyperbolic line and everyone thinks they are close to the centre, and differences with their immediate neighbours are significant and differences with anyone further off are unbridgeable.
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Old 01-07-2021, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Left, Right, and Centre

I feel I should try to head off one potential misreading of my endorsement of Obama's "need". I don't know whether Obama was intending to welcome these particular Republicans into the democratic fold, but that is certainly not my meaning. I think pretty much all of them—objectors and conceders alike—should be thrown out of politics for their 4 years of consorting and enablement.

I mean; we need leadership like that shown by some of them, in such great contrast to the others, in recent days.
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Old 01-07-2021, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
I think pretty much all of them—objectors and conceders alike—should be thrown out of politics for their 4 years of consorting and enablement.
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Old 01-14-2021, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Left, Right, and Centre

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I think I am in general agreement.

And I am thinking of a picture something like this ...

:gnash::blame: ------------------------------- :chat: :chat: :chat: :chat: :chat: ------------------------------- :blame: (mirrored):gnash:
extreme left ------------------------------- left wing centre left centre centre right right wing ------------------------------- extreme right

The groups in the middle mostly talk to themselves but are capable of sane discussion. The lunatics at the right fringe look left and just see socialists and commies and neither can nor want to see the difference. The lunatics at the left fringe look right and just see capitalist psychopaths.

Meanwhile it's a stretchy hyperbolic line and everyone thinks they are close to the centre, and differences with their immediate neighbours are significant and differences with anyone further off are unbridgeable.
I'm not going to assume they were idiots, ignorant, or misled. We had some idea what to expect: So did they.

The center is the group which looked at Agent Orange and thought: "At least he wants to hurt the correct people." And continued to support, and support, and support him for four long years. It's like trying to win an argument with a toothache.

The underlying issues of North American drug abuse, unemployment, and poverty have to be addressed before they'll be willing to talk. Otherwise they'll take their ball and go home. Again.
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Old 01-14-2021, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Corona688 View Post
The underlying issues of North American drug abuse, unemployment, and poverty have to be addressed before they'll be willing to talk. Otherwise they'll take their ball and go home. Again.
And the damned thing is, Obama did more than Trump there by a mile, casually, without fanfare.
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Old 01-19-2023, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Left, Right, and Centre

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
And I am thinking of a picture something like this ...

:gnash::blame: ------------------------------- :chat: :chat: :chat: :chat: :chat: ------------------------------- :gnash:
extreme left ------------------------------- left wing centre left centre centre right right wing ------------------------------- extreme right
Yes, that’s a pretty good illustration and it highlights the spatial aspects of the metaphor which seem to me to be problematic.

The model envisages a spectrum ordered from “left” to “right” on which most people’s political positions lie, enabling us to to say things like “B’s views are to the right of A’s but to the left of C’s”. To describe someone’s politics as “extreme left”, then, means that there are few if any people who hold views to the left of them, and “extreme right” is similarly understood. This is all simple and straight forward.

A problem arises, though, when we try to impute a metric in order to talk about , for example, the distance between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, or between someone on the Democratic left and a colleague who is on the right of the party.

Indeed, such a metric is implicated in the very notion of being in “the centre”. The centre must, in some practical sense, be equidistant from the two extremes, but is this mid point defined by the theoretical points on the line, or by the actual positions held by actual people? Am I in the middle if there are equal numbers of people, or equal numbers of policy options, to the left and to the right of my agenda? Or something else …

I want to consider three different approaches to this question; which I’ll dub “theoretical”, “psephological” and “tribal”

The theoretical model arises out of the study of political science, which can be thought of as providing a theoretical framework according to which various political positions are analysed and assigned a place on the line. I think this is the model implied in your diagram, JoeP.

The psephological interpretation is alluded to above. Given a population ordered according to their politics, the political distance between any two people is a measure of the number of people with political views that lie between them.

Because the ordering requires some theoretical understanding of left v right it is easy to mistake this model as just another version of the theoretical model, but there is at least one glaring difference. In the psephological model there is no recognition of theoretical positions that are not actually held by someone, and as a result, there are no wide empty gaps such as appear in your diagram.

in this model, the boundaries between moderate and extreme are necessarily arbitrary. So one could say that the left-most decile are “the extreme left”, and the right-most decile, “the extreme right”. Equally, one could use the left- and right-most quartiles or some other division. But whichever boundaries are chosen, there can be no yawning gap between the extremes and the centre.

The tribal model is based on some class analysis, according to which the poor are in conflict with the wealthy, so that parties and policies can be ordered according to which class interests they favour *. According to this model, a political position is left-wing if it serves the working class and right-wing if it serves the oligarchy.

In the tribal model, the distance between two political positions would be measured in terms of the difference in wealth or household income of the classes served by the different policies/aims associated with those positions.

To be a centrist in this tribal model is to support policies that promote the interests of the middle class. It is in this sense more than in any other I think, that the centre is deemed to be irreconcilable with the left.


*The tribal model might seem at first glance to be equivalent to the psephological model, and indeed, if we assume that everyone's political position is purely self-interested, the two are one and the same. But here's the thing: it is manifestly not the case that every citizen holds views and supports policies that serve only their own class interests. The considerable continuing support for Trump and the GOP are testament to that fact.
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Last edited by mickthinks; 01-19-2023 at 08:25 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-20-2023, 12:23 PM
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Default Re: Left, Right, and Centre

tl;dr for an immediate response but I will respond at some point.

Meanwhile this is as a good a thrad as any to mention an expression which I cannot believe I haven't heard before:
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