Do you ever want to convert?

[Kevlar]

For damn near my entire life I have been surrounded by Christians. Charismatic parents, Southern Baptist school, and home church ever Sunday (all day) and Wednesday.

Oddly, it always seemed like a charade to me and my principles have kept me from jumping on the bandwagon. That attitude keeps pushing me to the fringe of whatever group I happen to be in, since such a great proportion of Americans are either religious or give it props.

My wife and I were just having a conversation about directions to take in our life. We were going through things that interest us and things we have great knowledge of. Sort of kidding around, I broke out into a testimony about how I was lost in the darkness and the light of Jesus came to me in night and showed me HIS most blessed love. Then I threw my arms up and was about to break into speaking in tongues, when I stopped and looked at the expression on my wife's face. She was kind of shocked and said "that's pretty good!". That got us talking about how easy it would be to play the part, and how that would totally change the way our family and friends saw us. We would no longer be the lost heathens, we would be the blessed lambs of God! Praise Jesus! It would completely change our status in life.

Anyway, I know people don't usually consciously "sell out" like that. It may start as a somewhat unconscious act at first, but like all lies you tell, you would eventually come to "believe" it. Sure, that may cause cognitive dissonance, but can that be worse than a life of my children knowing very little of their grandparents? Trying to explain to my kids why we get rejected by family members and friends?

Anyone else ever have thoughts like these?

[Qingdai]

My family isn't religious, so there isn't the frustrating social disconnect.

Most of my high school friends went to some religious group at some time or another, mostly for the social aspect.

Is there someway you can make it a non-issue? Or are they forcing a conversion at every meeting?

[Kevlar]

Not only is it an issue at almost every point of communication with most of my family, they pretty much reject me and my children. It's not just my parents, we've had neighbors the same way (not here in Portland), I've lost two jobs because my bosses were right wing fundamentalists (my career path happens to attract the right wing types).

Now, I know a lot of people that just pay it lip service, and that would probably suffice to get us in the good graces of people we need to keep our family in tact. But I've always avoided that because it's just dishonest, and frankly it's made my stomach turn to suck up to these Machiavellian (sp?) types. It's not honestly respectful and I'm the type that doesn't want to give or get false respect.

[Garnet]

I've suspected for a long time that most believers really don't believe. I've got nothing to support that suspicion other than my personal observances of people saying they believe X and then acting in ways that indicate exactly the opposite.

The times in my life that I have been tempted to fake it in order to belong are usually few and far between. All I have to do is remind myself of the four years in my life when I tried everything I could to really be a sincere Christian and how that didn't work. Not a bit. Not at all. I was still on the outside looking in.

[godfry n. glad]

I think there is an enormous pressure to 'go along'. People WANT to be ACCEPTED. Really bad. The family is reputedly a place of ultimate acceptance. You can't ever be 'not related', even if you say you are....which is why I suspect so much 'unconditional love' comes into being from mothers and family members. What I hear you talking about is family members making their love and acceptance conditional upon what you profess as your belief. At base, they want you to mouth those words which assure them that they are not way off-base...that somebody else believes the same thing they do, so it can't really be wacky (even if it seems so to them).

A lot of people avoid the topic entirely. Y'know, the 'sex, politics and religion' routine, which makes for a lot of conversation about the weather, television and movies. Trivialization.

I know a lot of people who choose consciously to pervert their honest principles to maintain a relationship. Me? I've always considered that to be poor lesson. It also seems to more clearly delineate the power relationship, for, in my view, if one position cannot prevail without the other being suppressed through emotional extortion....it must be a weak position.

[LadyShea]

Luckily my family isn't religious, and Hubby's family has chosen to put those differences aside in favor of spending time with Kiddo and doing those things we all enjoy in common.

If that wasn't the case, I might be more tempted...but really, I have never been able to sell out on most anything. I just don't think I could spend so much of my life pretending. I also wouldn't want to set the example for my son that it's okay to pretend to be something you're not for the sake of societal acceptance....that could have too many implications if it turns out my kid is gay, or offbeat, or in some way "other". I also don't want him to think we find intolerance and small mindedness acceptable.

ETA: What about a compromise? Like a UU Congregation or an inclusive, Liberal denomination (some Episcopalians or Quakers or something). Part of the Lutheran church just started allowing committed gay clergy...step in the right direction.

[Smilin]

I was a believer at one time.

Much like you Kev, I was raised within a very strong Christian family (Church of Christ), but through a slow transformation over many years now I am a non-believer.

According to my parents, I'm an evolutionist, atheist, heathon liberal who's going to burn in hell for all eternity.

By my reasoning they're brain-washed sheep being led blindly through life by Christianity.

When my Mom starts lecturing to my kids about God, Jesus, Satan, etc, etc, I'm quick to remove them from that situation.

I can think of no reason why I would want to convert back, but that's just me.

[livius drusus]

I don't know from crazy evangelical family pressures, but I did have a moment of wanting to convert to Catholicism in second grade. All my friends were doing their First Communion and they got the cutest dresses.

I told my parents and my mom bought me a cute dress. Problem solved.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I also wouldn't want to set the example for my son that it's okay to pretend to be something you're not for the sake of societal acceptance....that could have too many implications if it turns out my kid is gay, or offbeat, or in some way "other".

[Dingfod]

Convert to Euros, yes, convert to a religion, no way. I played at being a Christian the first couple decades of my life, that was plenty.

[Smilin]

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Not only is it an issue at almost every point of communication with most of my family, they pretty much reject me and my children.

I'd say that is there loss.

Originally Posted by Kevlar

It's not just my parents, we've had neighbors the same way (not here in Portland),

You simply moved to a better area....what's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by Kevlar

I've lost two jobs because my bosses were right wing fundamentalists (my career path happens to attract the right wing types).

Seriously? There are laws against that kind of discremination.
Have you consulted a lawyer over this?

Now, I know a lot of people that just pay it lip service, and that would probably suffice to get us in the good graces of people we need to keep our family in tact. But I've always avoided that because it's just dishonest, and frankly it's made my stomach turn to suck up to these Machiavellian (sp?) types. It's not honestly respectful and I'm the type that doesn't want to give or get false respect.

Most "Christians" are just paying it lip service.

I'd rather be a freethinker than a sheeple any day of the week!

[erimir]

I grew up in an atheist/agnostic family. No family pressures there.

For a long time I thought I was a Christian cuz we celebrated Christmas and Easter. I never really gave it much thought. When we moved to North Carolina, I encountered people who actually talked about religion and wanted to convince me to follow theirs, and I learned what Christianity actually entailed, and from that point on I became more and more opposed to the idea.

I've never been tempted to convert, given that my family is non-religious, the Christians who cause problems for atheists are also generally homophobes and the ones that aren't homophobes generally are accepting of atheists. And I have a hard time selling out - I've never really feigned interest in females either.

[Shake]

Following Ding's lead ...

Convert to metric? Perhaps.

Re-convert to religion? Never.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I don't know from crazy evangelical family pressures, but I did have a moment of wanting to convert to Catholicism in second grade. All my friends were doing their First Communion and they got the cutest dresses.

I told my parents and my mom bought me a cute dress. Problem solved.

There we go...

Buy Kevlar a cute dress.

I liiiiike that...heh.

[Legs]

If Widget and I ever entered a church it would explode.

[BrotherMan]

Here's the church
and here's the steeple
Legs and Widget enter
and OH GOD THE HORROR

[ChuckF]

No. No religion in my immediate family. I think my dad's side dropped the whole Catholicism bullshit when they came over from the old country. Mom's side stuck with it until the previous generation. Remaining believers in the extended family are regarded with suspicion. 95% of the time when religion comes up in conversation, it is being mocked. So no pressure from that side.

Sometimes people talk to me about God or religion and whatsis, but I really stopped caring about that stuff a while back, so it kind of rolls off of me. I try to be polite but eventually my apathy shows through. Like I don't even have a realistic idea of what role religion plays in most American lives. I tend to think of it as nothing more some abstract and weird thing that some people do on the weekends for reasons I don't understand. I know it's more important than that, but I think I minimize it because faith has absolutely no role in my life. That's one of the reasons I couldn't really play the part, even if it would be socially or economically useful. Eventually everything would start sounding sarcastic and then I would have to convert to Judaism and I think that is a lot harder.

[Plant Woman]

Originally Posted by Smilin

According to my parents, I'm an evolutionist, atheist, heathon liberal who's going to burn in hell for all eternity.

Herein lies the problem for me. They worship a thing that would throw their child into an eternal torture chamber and they see nothing wrong with that. If someone was threatening my child with such horror, I would turn my back on such a monster myself in an instant even if it meant my own torture. Actually I did turn my back on such a monstrous religion but then I had quit believing in the myths. It took quite a few years before I was able to completely let go of the fear that religion instilled in me.

Kevin, you have to do what you feel you need to do, but I can't see you living without integrity (you just don't strike me as such a person). That religion house of cards would probably fall fast for you. Also it teaches your children that you cave in to intolerance. I think you teach your children more by standing up for your beliefs, IMO.

[Megatron]

Plant Woman just won the internet, game's over folks, we can all go home now.

(no, seriously, that post is pretty much fucking perfect)

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by BrotherMan

Here's the church
and here's the steeple
Legs and Widget enter
[Whereupon there is screaming]

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

ETA: What about a compromise? Like a UU Congregation or an inclusive, Liberal denomination (some Episcopalians or Quakers or something). Part of the Lutheran church just started allowing committed gay clergy...step in the right direction.

To these people, there are no compromises. Actually, in their eyes, I think the Unitarians are deeper in hell than the atheists. We did try going to the Unitarian Church at our neighbors suggestion, as she had the same idea about compromise. My mom would have been happier if I had just stayed in bed, drank a bottle of Jack Daniels, and masturbated to a copy of the Satanic Bible.

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I told my parents and my mom bought me a cute dress. Problem solved.

I'm thinking lime green with little pink flowers would really bring out my eyes.

Originally Posted by Smilin

I'd say that is there loss.

You know, in many ways you are right, but it's also the kids and our loss for not having more loving grandparents.

Originally Posted by Smilin

Seriously? There are laws against that kind of discremination. Have you consulted a lawyer over this?

The first time it happened, my son was best friends with the son of one of the best lawyers in town. This guy hooked me up and wrote my company a friendly little letter, made sure to dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s. They settled very quickly for a fairly nice sum. LOL He really didn't do any more than just let them know he was there. It made me wonder what would he would have done if I had payed him!

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by Kevlar

You know, in many ways you are right, but it's also the kids and our loss for not having more loving grandparents.

I can see your point but it still seems to me you will never have more loving grandparents...

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by Watser?

I can see your point but it still seems to me you will never have more loving grandparents...

Yeah, that's a fact my wife and I are coming to accept. Conditional love isn't something I want my children to experience and be pressured by. But the kids still suffer when they see other children with doting grandparents, there is just no way for my kids to understand why they don't have that. My wife's mother was the only one who didn't have those kind of hangups, and was a super grandmother, but was taken by cancer. Unfortunately, my kids won't remember her. In general, it's hard to explain why we don't have any family coming to visit or calling us on the phone, like they see in other families...

[LadyShea]

I'm sorry Kev, sucks all around.

However, might I add that being "different" isn't necessarily damaging, and can actually help you teach your kids empathy, tolerance, etc. (I was the kid with the Liberal hippy parents in conservative churchville)

You just need to explain to them that some people, including your family members, are intolerant of those that believe/look/act differently than they do, and that one can create their own family. Perhaps you have a lonely elderly neighbor you can adopt (our neighbors are honorary grandparents) or maybe they have an adopt a grandparent program at a local retirement home or something?

Also, can I ask: Are the kids really suffering, or are you suffering and sort of projecting that onto them? It hurts to be rejected by family, as I know from my in-laws...but finding coping mechanisms for yourself as well as your family may help you all grow closer and strengthen you as a unit.

I cope by going on the offensive. You want access to me or my kid, you don't cross the lines I set. If you don't care enough about us to follow my rules, fuck you I don't need you in my life. Plenty of people think we're just swell.

[Plant Woman]

It does suck. I know far too well what it's like.