Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?

I have linked below to a debate in Britain on Islam and their view of intolerance and as to whether the West should reciprocate in kind and not tolerate Islam and their ideology.

I also have linked to two speakers who look a bit deeper at the Western situation facing Canada the U.S. as well as other Western countries. I have intentionally ignored the French situation as well as what is happening in the Netherlands as I want to speak primarily to the ideology and not the violence of Islam.

Should the British stop tolerating intolerance? (The Big Questions, 15/6/14) - YouTube

The Big Questions - Should We Tolerate The Intolerant - YouTube

Trojan Horse: Islam In The UK - YouTube

------------

The End of the World as We Know It, with Mark Steyn - YouTube

Suicide of a Superpower: Pat Buchanan on the Death of Western Civilization - YouTube

----------

Do unto others as you would like done unto you, or some alternative of this reciprocity rule, is a recognized moral tenet that most moral theologies and philosophies follow.

Islam, in most of its forms, is thought by most to be homophobic and misogynous. At its worse, it will kill Muslim women just for not wearing a proper head and or face covering. The Hebdo murders also show how far they will go to prevent freedom of speech and expression.

If the West, including Canada and the U.S., continues to allow Muslim immigration we will also have to live in fear of having Islam attack us if we happen to offend their religious sensitivities by speech or expression.

Do we really want the type of future that they are presently suffering east of the Atlantic?

Should we close our borders to Islam before we have to suffer Islamic fundamentalist, extremists and even moderate who will attack our political systems so as to implement Sharia?

If we look at some Islamic countries, we see that they have basically banned Western ideology. Should we do unto Islam what they are doing unto us and ban their ideology in our Western countries?

Regards
DL

[Dragar]

There isn't 'an Islam', of any sort.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Originally Posted by Dragar

There isn't 'an Islam', of any sort.

France disagrees.

What does Islam mean to you?

Use the dictionary if you must.

Regards
DL

[Awareness]

No just KKK they are such sweethearts these years,and other non violent minorities. But how do you keep the bad from the good when looking at Muslims?
We should try to teach the deranged within the Muslim community, together , Muslims and Christians.....

[Dragar]

Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop

France disagrees.

Maybe France and Islam can sit down in a room with some other Abstract Nouns and have a discussion about it?

[Watser?]

Why do you continue to do ISIS's job for them?

Also: didn't we already do this one?

Islam, in most of its forms, is thought by most to be homophobic and misogynous.

Questions:
1) Most of its forms? Name some and tell us how they differ?
2) Thought by most... Most what? Canadians? White people? Muslims? Christians? Generic humans?

At its worse, it will kill Muslim women just for not wearing a proper head and or face covering.

3) Could you give us some examples of where this has happened and if it was a state actor or someone who was later punished?

Do we really want the type of future that they are presently suffering east of the Atlantic?

4) Tell us about the suffering of my people east of the Atlantic?

Should we close our borders to Islam before we have to suffer Islamic fundamentalist, extremists and even moderate who will attack our political systems so as to implement Sharia?

5) Can you give us an example how Islamic fundamentalist, extremists and even moderates are 'attacking your political systems so as to implement Sharia'?

If we look at some Islamic countries, we see that they have basically banned Western ideology. Should we do unto Islam what they are doing unto us and ban their ideology in our Western countries?

6) Who is this 'we' you are talking about?
6a)I don't see nothing of the kind. Where exactly are these "Islamic countries" that have "basically banned Western ideology"?
6b) I have nothing in common with you that I do not have in common with the average Muslim and probably things with him/her that I don't have in common with you (like say, empathy). And how are they 'our' countries?

7) Close 'our borders to Islam'? So not just keep Muslims out of the country physically but also ban the Koran and all other Muslim writings and deport anyone who converts?

Just a few questions that popped up.

[godfry n. glad]

All good questions which deserve answers, Watser?

When he's finished with yours, how about the OP answers the question as to whether Canada and the US should tolerate intolerant Christians?

Also, has the OP considered that those 'Islamists' forcing violence upon others may be acting in reciprocity for the violent attacks upon their homes and families?

[davidm]

Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop

Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?

<snip twaddle>

Haven't you tired of having your ass comprehensively handed to you in other threads? Or are you just a glutton for punishment?

There are `1.6 billion Muslims in this world. Are they all running around beheading people, committing suicide bombings, shooting up concerts? No, they are not.

Is Islam to blame for ISIS and Al Qaeda? No. WE ARE.

We, right here in the West.

We created Islamic extremism.

Just look at those lovely pix of that amiable dunce Ronnie Reagan sitting around with Jihadis! America has no memory, of course! I wonder why the Tea Party wingnuts who have seized control of Lincoln's party not convened a Benghazi-style panel to look into the errors and malefactions of their beloved idiot, that empty suit so fatuously nicknamed Das Gipper?

The roots of this mess go back much farther, though, to World War I, when the Western victors carved up the Ottoman Empire into colonies and protectorates without any understanding of local culture, history and religion. The "nations" of the Middle East are artificial constructions.

Then, of course, there was the forced imposition of Israel in the region in 1948.

The average Arab looks to the West and sees -- correctly! -- oppressors, imperialists and murderers. In fact, they see terrorists. How many Iraqis, many of them children, perished under the forced sanctions regime imposed on their country by the U.S.-led West after the Gulf War of 1990? A war, don't forget, that was fought against another Western-made Frankenstein, Saddam Hussein. How many innocent Arabs have been slaughtered since the U.S. commenced its "war on Terra" in 2001? How many wedding parties have been blown to molecules by our brave Western drone strikes?

If you don't want to be terrorized, don't be the world's No. 1 terrorist.

Islam has nothing to do with the attacks in Paris or anywhere else. Islam is not a source of these attacks, or this rage; the source is decades of colonization, displacement, forced dictatorial regimes, and mass murder by the West against these peoples. At best, for the tiny minority of Muslims who commit these attacks, Islam is really just a banner to be rallied around -- for after all, why not? All peoples rally around banners. The U.S. people mindlessly rally around the stars and stripes without thinking what that flag really stands for (slavery, genocide against Native Americans, suppression of labor, misogyny and homophobia, persistent efforts, only periodically rebuffed, to concentrate obscene amounts of wealth into the fewest hands possible). In World War II, the cultured German people, so recently humiliated by the harsh terms of the Versailles treaty, rallied around the Swastika. It had nothing to do with religion.

Blaming Islam in particular, or for that matter religions in general, for the ills in the world, is at best feeble-minded, and at worst blatantly dishonest. The truth is, the right-wing jingoes of the West who assail ISIS and call for war against them, secretly love ISIS and are in cahoots with them. America always needs enemies, in order to perpetuate and expand the military-industrial complex against which Eisenhower so presciently warned. ISIS is a godsend for these clowns.

As for Gnostic Christian Bishop, he's just a blithering, humorless, dishonest imbecile.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Originally Posted by Awareness

No just KKK they are such sweethearts these years,and other non violent minorities. But how do you keep the bad from the good when looking at Muslims?
We should try to teach the deranged within the Muslim community, together , Muslims and Christians.....

Which Christians?

I think it would be quite difficult for homophobic and misogynous Christians to try to teach Muslim men not to be homophobic and misogynous.

Mind you, Christians have improved over the years and are almost civilized.

Christian VS Muslim - YouTube

Regards
DL

[Watser?]

Which Christians? Christians!

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by davidm

Is Islam to blame for ISIS and Al Qaeda? No. WE ARE.

We, right here in the West.

Stereotypical American: "Why do you hate America?"

Just look at those lovely pix of that amiable dunce Ronnie Reagan sitting around with Jihadis! America has no memory, of course!

Stereotypical American: Ronald Reagan [pbuh] was the greatest President EVER! He would NEVER have consorted with terrorists! You should just SHUT UP!



Sadly, far too many Americans have exactly that sort of reaction if you try to get them to think about such things. And put exactly that amount of "thinking" into their responses.

[Vivisectus]

A lesser effort bishop, we already covered why it is dishonest and simpletonian (bite me im making it a word) to attribute those attitudes to all of islam. Also hypocritical since christian extremists are equally awful, and because as we have seen you are not against misogyny, just against misogyny other than your own.

It is all part of a sort of shallow and lazy kind of ethnophobia that is getting very popular in some countries, including my own, as people try to create a simple narrative to explain complex and disparate social and cultural problems and questions.

It used to be the jews that were supposedly conspiring to weaken us all thriugh a world conspiracy, in order to subjugate us all, and shallow idiots repeated that little story too.


Sent from my HUAWEI Y550-L01 using Tapatalk

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by davidm

The average Arab looks to the West and sees -- correctly! -- oppressors, imperialists and murderers.

Don't forget hypocrites.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

A lesser effort bishop, we already covered why it is dishonest and simpletonian (bite me im making it a word) to attribute those attitudes to all of islam. Also hypocritical since christian extremists are equally awful, and because as we have seen you are not against misogyny, just against misogyny other than your own.

It is all part of a sort of shallow and lazy kind of ethnophobia that is getting very popular in some countries, including my own, as people try to create a simple narrative to explain complex and disparate social and cultural problems and questions.

It used to be the jews that were supposedly conspiring to weaken us all thriugh a world conspiracy, in order to subjugate us all, and shallow idiots repeated that little story too.


Sent from my HUAWEI Y550-L01 using Tapatalk

No argument that Christianity still has a ways to go but they are quite near to being fully civilized.

I did mention "Islam in most of its forms" which allows some leeway for the left wing progressives but I think they are in the minority. Some Muslin dominant countries are even quite democratic and do not oppress their women near as much as the right wing that is the real enemy just as right wing Christianity is.

Right wing Islam is the worst in the world at present with their rape laws child brides, homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL

[Vivisectus]

You "think" that based on very little.

Now, are there lots of countries that are predominantly islamic that are deeply sexist? Sure there are. But they would be just as sexist if they were christian... as some deeply sexist cultures/groups/countries are.

But that is not because of the religion. It is just good old fashioned ignorance.

And lets face it, you are in favor of sexism. You just dont like foreign sexism.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y550-L01 using Tapatalk

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

^^

You "think" that based on very little.

Regards
DL

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop

France disagrees.

It does?

Feel free to provide a source for your claim that France believes there is "an Islam" that factors in all the variations.

[erimir]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

You "think" that based on very little.

Now, are there lots of countries that are predominantly islamic that are deeply sexist? Sure there are. But they would be just as sexist if they were christian... as some deeply sexist cultures/groups/countries are.

Personally, I would want to see evidence for that claim. I'd especially like to see the comparison to atheists (go with people raised atheist, if you prefer, since rejecting sexism may be a reason to become atheist).

I definitely don't take GCB's view of things, but I find it hard to believe that Islam and Christianity have no actual content other than that people observe Ramadan or Easter and go to the mosque or church. When the Qur'an/hadith and Bible make sexist statements about women, or promote sexist standards of behavior, I am to assume they do not make anyone more sexist than they otherwise would be? And that the content of those scriptures and traditions does not vary with regards to women?

We might as well not bother with our campaigns against sexism in American media and advertising then, because how could Calvin Klein ads possible carry more weight than the Bible and the Qur'an?

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop

^^

You "think" that based on very little.

Regards
DL

Well I can actually support my assertion: you did not answer any of Wasters questions when he asked you to support your claims. How do you support yours?

[Vivisectus]

[quote=erimir;1242760]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

You "think" that based on very little.

Now, are there lots of countries that are predominantly islamic that are deeply sexist? Sure there are. But they would be just as sexist if they were christian... as some deeply sexist cultures/groups/countries are.

Originally Posted by erimir

Personally, I would want to see evidence for that claim. I'd especially like to see the comparison to atheists (go with people raised atheist, if you prefer, since rejecting sexism may be a reason to become atheist).

I definitely don't take GCB's view of things, but I find it hard to believe that Islam and Christianity have no actual content other than that people observe Ramadan or Easter and go to the mosque or church. When the Qur'an/hadith and Bible make sexist statements about women, or promote sexist standards of behavior, I am to assume they do not make anyone more sexist than they otherwise would be? And that the content of those scriptures and traditions does not vary with regards to women.

What you can assume is that the actual content of the scriptures gives very little indication of how sexist the tradition it will be used to justify is finally going to be.

If you want evidence, just look at female genital mutilation. Eww. Ok well, don't, but consider it for a moment. Ack phrasing!

Think for a minute about the practice of female genital mutilation. It is not mentioned at all in the Qu'ran, and yet the people who practice it claim it is part of their religion... even though the vast majority of people who base their beliefs on the same book disagree.

By the same token, a lot of Christians happily ignore Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians and Timothy - all new testament - which explicitly state women must defer to men. The same applies to lots of european Muslims. Strict Hasidim think equality is ludicrous as men and women have very strictly defined and separated roles, while more liberal Jews have completely different attitudes.

It seems it is not a matter of religion really. They are cultural attitudes. Interpreting religion A rather then religion B to justify those attitudes is of course a part of a cultural inheritance, and I am sure some scriptures make justifying sexism easier than others, but I do not see much reason to believe that it matter that much which religion that ends up being, because as we can clearly see, people interpret them pretty much any way they please, and in radically differing ways.

We might as well not bother with our campaigns against sexism in American media and advertising then, because how could Calvin Klein ads possible carry more weight than the Bible and the Qur'an?

Actually, I think it is the other way around. If religions and their texts were so fundamental to our attitudes, then how come we happily ignore gross sexism in the Bible but campaign against some perfume pusher?

[erimir]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Actually, I think it is the other way around. If religions and their texts were so fundamental to our attitudes, then how come we happily ignore gross sexism in the Bible but campaign against some perfume pusher?

I don't think people ignore the sexism in the Bible anyway. The way people approach critiquing it is different though.

Besides that, it's precisely because most people in America/Europe are either irreligious, nominal/unserious Christians (they don't know what's in the Bible, they don't go to church frequently, etc.) or belong to liberal denominations of Christianity (i.e. denominations which are quite flexible in interpreting the Bible). Feminists have gotten most people to reject the explicit, obvious sexism of the Bible - and I think that's part of why there are so many more irreligious people today. It's harder to maintain the belief once you recognize parts of the holy book are just shit.

If we can get Muslims to ignore* "re-interpret" the Qur'an just as much as Christians "re-interpret" the Bible, then great. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible and the Qur'an are both horrible books and both Christians and Muslims tend to be worse the more seriously they take them.

But the history of the Bible and the Qur'an is significantly different and I don't think all those differences are irrelevant.

Personally, I think your perspective is a bit patronizing to religious people in dismissing that their religion has any importance at all, despite all their claims to the contrary. I mean, I'm not saying these things are ALL due to religion either. But I don't think it's an insignificant factor just because religion and culture are intertwined.

*I don't want to say "ignore" per se... I don't just mean people who aren't very religious and thus don't care.

[But]

Originally Posted by erimir

If we can get Muslims to ignore* "re-interpret" the Qur'an just as much as Christians "re-interpret" the Bible, then great. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible and the Qur'an are both horrible books and both Christians and Muslims tend to be worse the more seriously they take them.

But the history of the Bible and the Qur'an is significantly different and I don't think all those differences are irrelevant.

Christianity mostly revolves around Jesus, who seems like a nice guy, like the Buddha maybe. On the other hand, Muhammad was an incredible butthurt, power-drunk asshole.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by But

Christianity mostly revolves around Jesus, who seems like a nice guy, like the Buddha maybe. On the other hand, Muhammad was an incredible butthurt, power-drunk asshole.

Christianity might revolve around Jesus, but you'd play hell trying to prove that with most of those claiming to be 'Christians'. All too frikken many of those calling themselves Christians have no frikken idea WWJD, cause they think he rides a TRex and wields an Uzi.

[Ymir's blood]

show spoiler

[Watser?]