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  #151  
Old 12-04-2023, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I don't get this "Israel won't accept it" argument against the two state solution. It seems, among other things, a logical error - assuming the solution, excluding the middle, etc. Also, defeatist. Also, it seems very much one side pushing an agenda with misinformation.
The argument isn't that Israel wouldn't accept it, but that every government administration they have had for 50 years has actively fought against it--by continuing to build illegal settlements in the occupied territories--while claiming to be open to accepting it. I don't think that's fallacious, but arguably defeatist. The alternative being promoted is a one-state solution though, which some say is way more fantastical than the two-state solution. So I don't know if defeatist is the right word. What misinformation are you referring to?
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  #152  
Old 12-04-2023, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Cynically / paranoiacally suspected misinformation, nothing specific. Trust no one! :noid:
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  #153  
Old 12-04-2023, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Fair enough!

I strongly suspect Medhi Hasan's last confrontational interview with the Israeli spokesperson was the reason MSNBC cancelled his show, but I can prove nothing!

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  #154  
Old 12-06-2023, 04:50 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Guess what organization used to be called “The American Zionist Committee For Public Affairs”?

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  #155  
Old 12-07-2023, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Israel urges Gaza civilians to flee to ‘safe zone,’ where arrivals find little but muddy roads

The reality? The area of Muwasi is a makeshift tent camp where thousands of dazed Palestinians live in squalid conditions in scattered farm fields and waterlogged dirt roads.

And the Band played on.
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  #156  
Old 12-08-2023, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

By coincidence I was perusing the website of the United Nations Office On Genocide Prevention And The Responsiblity To Protect and found the notification for this event happening today, celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Genocide Convention.

"A Living Force In World Society: The Legacy Of The 1948 Convention On The Prevention And Punishment Of The Crime Of Genocide"
Save The Date: 8 December 2023
11:00 Am - 1:00 Pm | Unhq Trusteeship Chamber
Live Stream @ Webtv.Un.Org
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  #157  
Old 12-10-2023, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

The US has once again vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire.

Security Council Fails to Adopt Resolution Demanding Immediate Humanitarian Ceasefire in Gaza on Account of Veto by United States | UN Press

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The Security Council today failed to adopt a resolution that would have demanded an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza due to a veto cast by the United States, following a debate earlier in the day that was urgently called for by the UN Secretary-General. (See Press Release SC/15518.)

If adopted, the resolution — presented by the United Arab Emirates — would have also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages, as well as ensuring humanitarian access.

By other terms, it would have reiterated its demand that all parties comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, notably regarding the protection of civilians. Further, it would have requested the Secretary-General to report to the Council on an urgent and continuing basis on the state of implementation of the present resolution.
It continues to amaze me that there is still weeping and gnashing of teeth primarily over the people Hamas killed on October 7th when at least twice as many Palestinians have been killed EVERY WEEK since then and it is barely acknowledged. It could not be more patently obvious that many people believe Israeli lives have value and Palestinian lives do not.
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  #158  
Old 12-23-2023, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

The latest UN Security Council vote on a resolution addressing the situation in Gaza was delayed for several days while they ironed out language the US would not veto. Specifically, they had to change a call for a ceasefire to this mushy newspeak: “[…] create the conditions for a sustainable cessation of hostilities;”

Russia proposed an amendment to restore the language calling for a ceasefire and a large majority of the other member states voted ‘yes’, but of course the US vetoed it. Then the vote on the resolution with the wording above came to a vote and passed with only one abstention: the United States. Apparently agreeing not to veto a resolution that US Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield described as “a glimmer of hope amongst a sea of unimaginable suffering” is the best we could do. We couldn't actually vote for it.

On another note, this article was an interesting read:

Quote:
The Free Speech Debate Is a Trap

What everyone knows on some level, I think, is that speech has the power to incite action because speech itself is already a material act. Yes, anti-Zionism is an idea, not a rock; but if it were only an idea, without any practical potential, then there would be no point in throwing it. The difference right now is that, given the tremendous political and ideological instability introduced by the war, a number of powerful people in America currently believe that talking about freeing Palestine could actually end up freeing Palestine, and it is this cascade of actions that they are ultimately trying to suppress.

Last but not least, did we talk about H. Res. 894? If not, it’s time to throw away your dictionary because the US House of Representatives “clearly and firmly states that anti-Zionism is antisemitism”.

Okay, really last but not least I just finished reading On Palestine which is a collection of interviews and essays between and by Noam Chomsky and Israeli historian Ilan Pappe that is well worth reading.
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  #159  
Old 12-23-2023, 09:09 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

And the Band Played on.
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  #160  
Old 01-04-2024, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Big props to Paul Biggar, co-founder of the “unicorn” CircleCI, for his unflinching critique of the ongoing genocide in Gaza and for starting Tech for Palestine. The CEO of CircleCI ousted him almost immediately, but in the interview below he explains why he isn’t worried about it. (Hint: he’s probably rich.)

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  #161  
Old 01-05-2024, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

That video is restricted. Remind me to watch when I am not at the office. :thankee:
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  #162  
Old 01-05-2024, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

South Africa launches case at top UN court accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza

"South Africa asked The Hague-based court to issue an interim order for Israel to immediately suspend its military operations in Gaza. A hearing into that request is likely in the coming days or weeks. The case, if it goes ahead, will take years, but an interim order could be issued within weeks."

There is no simple response to what is happening. Condemnation Israel's military actions is not a stand in support of Hamas. Condemning Hamas for starting this mess is NOT supporting Israel's military actions.

Israeli and Hamas Leadership should be gathered up and put to trial for their crimes against Humanity.
The Palestinian people must be rescued from the insanity, by any means necessary.

Aside: So how many by-standers were victims of the Israel take-out of the Hamas Commander in Beirut?
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  #163  
Old 01-06-2024, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

this is from a couple months ago, a CNN chart (sorry), but yeah the disparity in perpetuated violence is only getting worse

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  #164  
Old 01-06-2024, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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That video is restricted. Remind me to watch when I am not at the office. :thankee:
Hey, Crumb
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  #165  
Old 01-06-2024, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Regarding the South African claim, in the video below (starting at 44:35), Emma interviews Francis Boyle, a human rights lawyer who has argued (and won) in front of the ICJ. I haven't read the full document yet but I plan to. I understand it to be very compelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsMac
There is no simple response to what is happening. Condemnation Israel's military actions is not a stand in support of Hamas. Condemning Hamas for starting this mess is NOT supporting Israel's military actions.
I agree that criticizing Israel is not a defense of Hamas (or antisemetic, Congressional resolutions to the contrary), and that condemning Hamas for crimes against humanity is not a de facto defense of the IDFs actions in the months since then, but the problem with this phrasing is that "this mess" started long before October 7th.

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  #166  
Old 01-06-2024, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Regarding the South African claim, in the video below (starting at 44:35), Emma interviews Francis Boyle, a human rights lawyer who has argued (and won) in front of the ICJ. I haven't read the full document yet but I plan to. I understand it to be very compelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsMac
There is no simple response to what is happening. Condemnation Israel's military actions is not a stand in support of Hamas. Condemning Hamas for starting this mess is NOT supporting Israel's military actions.
I agree that criticizing Israel is not a defense of Hamas (or antisemetic, Congressional resolutions to the contrary), and that condemning Hamas for crimes against humanity is not a de facto defense of the IDFs actions in the months since then, but the problem with this phrasing is that "this mess" started long before October 7th.
This particular "Mess" has been festering for nearly a century, actually. (Probably longer, when you dig down through the last couple or three millennia.)

With all due respect, the Israeli attempts to reclaim the Palestine as their home seems not unlike the former residents of Manhattan coming back to reclaim "Their Homeland", or the Italians following Mussolini to "reclaim" all of what once belonged to Rome. (Or, now, our Friend, Vladimir, claiming the goal of restoring the Empire of the Russian Czars.)

But, that, I reckon, may be too much topic drift. And, they are now well entrenched, with nowhere else to go. However, I believe it to be their responsibility to make it work for everybody.
This probably requires them dealing with Hamas rather sternly. But what they are doing now will just create the next generation of whatever might replace Hamas.

[Aside: What do you do when you move back into the old neighborhood, only to find out they all hate you?]
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  #167  
Old 01-06-2024, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Yeah, I don't have a lot of patience for arguments about whose land it was a couple thousand years ago and as an atheist I don't really care that the religious fundamentalists of each group claims it's theirs by divine right.

From my point of view the current mess started with the Balfour Declaration, the establishment of a "Jewish state", and the subsequent displacement of ~750k Palestinians in the 'Nakba'. Everything since then has been the push and pull of a settler-colonical theocratic, ethno-state (Israel) and an oppressed people (Palestinians) who have at least as much right to live there as the Israelis.

Until 1948 the land was shared by Arabs and Jews (though the latter were a small minority) and as far as I'm concerned they should share it today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsMac
And, they are now well entrenched, with nowhere else to go.
I think you mean the Israelis, and I understand that perspective. It doesn't really explain the 60k + American Jews who have displaced Palestinians to move into West Bank settlements though. Nobody made them go there.
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  #168  
Old 01-06-2024, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

This post by John Mearsheimer is a good one.

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For the record, I believed Israel was guilty of serious war crimes--but not genocide—during the first two months of the war, even though there was growing evidence of what Bartov has called “genocidal intent” on the part of Israeli leaders.5*But it became clear to me after the 24-30 November 2023 truce ended and Israel went back on the offensive, that Israeli leaders were in fact seeking to physically destroy a substantial portion of Gaza’s Palestinian population.
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  #169  
Old 01-06-2024, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Yeah, I don't have a lot of patience for arguments about whose land it was a couple thousand years ago and as an atheist I don't really care that the religious fundamentalists of each group claims it's theirs by divine right.

From my point of view the current mess started with the Balfour Declaration, the establishment of a "Jewish state", and the subsequent displacement of ~750k Palestinians in the 'Nakba'. Everything since then has been the push and pull of a settler-colonical theocratic, ethno-state (Israel) and an oppressed people (Palestinians) who have at least as much right to live there as the Israelis.

Until 1948 the land was shared by Arabs and Jews (though the latter were a small minority) and as far as I'm concerned they should share it today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsMac
And, they are now well entrenched, with nowhere else to go.
I think you mean the Israelis, and I understand that perspective. It doesn't really explain the 60k + American Jews who have displaced Palestinians to move into West Bank settlements though. Nobody made them go there.
And, it is not just American Jews who have relocated, but from "all over the planet". I don't begrudge them the relocation. After what the Nazis did, it's understandable that having a real Home of their own in the world is critical.
And had the Muslim nations simply allowed the process to take place, it very likely would have, by now, been accomplished with little or no bloodshed.

Islamic Militants and their supporters bear most of the blame. But what IDF is doing now is still unconscionable. And it must stop.

I've said my piece, I reckon, and it's time for me to shut up now.
Thanks for putting up with my rant.
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Old 01-07-2024, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

As far as rants go that was pretty mild. :)

I would have agreed with the contours of your argument a few months ago. Even my first post in this thread was informed by that same essential perspective. Since then I have learned a lot about the history of the region that I didn't know before, and now my opinion has changed dramatically.

At this point I do begrudge the Jewish people the relocation to Israel because of how they went about it and everything they have done in the decades since they started moving there.

I completely understand that Jews have been hated and vilified all over the world for centuries, and the holocaust* was a uniquely horrific example of that hatred. However I tend to agree with Chomsky who argues (in "On Palestine") that the force of Christian Zionism, which predates Jewish Zionism by a lot, was strong enough that there likely would have been a move to establish Israel as a Jewish state even if the holocaust hadn't happened.

In any case I have no sympathy for the argument that once they decided to establish a state in a populated land, the current inhabitants had any obligation to "simply [allow] the process to take place". It was well within their rights (and should have been reasonably expected) that they would not willingly hand over their land and property to Jewish immigrants. The same logic is being used today to justify the eviction, assault, and murder of Palestinian people in the West Bank (where Hamas has no authority, btw) to make way for (in many cases) American Jews who decide they want to live in Israel. In what way is that a hallmark of a so-called "liberal democracy"?


*As an aside, and in no way meaning to minimize the horrors of the holocaust, I recently learned that the reason we use 'holocaust' to describe what happened during WWII is because the genocide convention, which was a response to those events, had not yet been written. Ironically, this means that what happened to the Jewish people in WWII was not legally a 'genocide', but what Israel is doing to the Palestinians right now might very well be.
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  #171  
Old 01-13-2024, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

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COVERAGE OF GAZA WAR IN THE NEW YORK TIMES AND OTHER MAJOR NEWSPAPERS HEAVILY FAVORED ISRAEL, ANALYSIS SHOWS
A quantitative analysis shows major newspapers skewed their coverage toward Israeli narratives in the first six weeks of the assault on Gaza.
New York Times and Other Major Newspapers Skew Pro-Israel
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  #172  
Old 01-13-2024, 09:09 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

"In any case I have no sympathy for the argument that once they decided to establish a state in a populated land, the current inhabitants had any obligation to "simply [allow] the process to take place". It was well within their rights (and should have been reasonably expected) that they would not willingly hand over their land and property to Jewish immigrants. The same logic is being used today to justify the eviction, assault, and murder of Palestinian people in the West Bank (where Hamas has no authority, btw) to make way for (in many cases) American Jews who decide they want to live in Israel. In what way is that a hallmark of a so-called "liberal democracy"?"

That was actually my apparently bumbled attempt at Irony. But it seems as though that was exactly what the authors of the plan expected to happen.
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  #173  
Old 01-21-2024, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

And, just in case anyone thought that it was over,...


"RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — The Palestinian death toll from the war between Israel and Hamas has soared past 25,000, the Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip said Sunday, while Israel announced the death of another hostage and appeared far from achieving its goals of freeing more than 100 others and crushing the militant group.

The deaths, destruction and displacement from the war are without precedent in the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The war has divided Israelis while the offensive threatens to ignite a wider conflict involving Iran-backed groups in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen that support the Palestinians.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he stressed in his conversation with U.S. President Joe Biden on Friday that he rejects Hamas demands for a cease-fire, Israeli forces’ withdrawal and the release of Palestinians held by Israel in exchange for the remaining hostages. He said that agreeing means another devastating Hamas attack “would only be a matter of time.”

Netanyahu also rejects calls from U.S, its closest ally, for postwar plans that would include a path to Palestinian statehood. U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres called the refusal to accept a two-state solution unacceptable."
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  #174  
Old 01-23-2024, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

And the band Plays on

"...
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu mourned the soldiers, who died when the blast from a rocket-propelled grenade triggered explosives they were laying. But he vowed to press ahead until “absolute victory,” even as Israelis are increasingly divided over whether it’s possible to both crush Hamas and free scores of captives.
..."
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  #175  
Old 02-20-2024, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by But
I'd say, based on the general playbook from recent years, that they're going for a body count of about twenty thousand and squeeze in an ethnic cleansing of a fourth of the Gaza Strip before senile piece of shit Uncle Joe makes them stop.
Ah, remember the good ole’ days when that seemed like it might be an exaggeration?

One of our projects at Tech For Palestine is this collection of datasets, one of which shows the total number of people killed in Gaza is moving toward 30k, and so far they seem to have ethnically cleansed at least 1/2, closer to 3/4 of the strip, and the US is poised to veto yet another ceasefire resolution at the UN in a couple hours. At least Biden muttered something into a microphone about how he really hopes that Netanyahu doesn’t invade Rafah and make us supply the bombs. He’ll do it if he has to, of course, but I can tell he really, really doesn’t want to. Poor old guy.

Since I joined Tech For Palestine I have been much more active posting about this on LinkedIn than anywhere else, and I have connected with and talked to people all over the Middle East about many and various initiatives to try and support the Palestinian people. I wish there was more I could do.

While I still believe it’s likely the Republicans taking power would be a net negative for the world and I haven't come out publicly against Biden, I fully understand why #AbandonBiden and #GenocideJoe are trending in Michigan and I will not be even a little surprised if Biden loses here (and overall) in November. I'll be voting "uncommitted" in the Democratic primary because Rashida Tlaib suggested it and it's the closest approximation to how I feel right now.
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Ari (02-20-2024), But (02-28-2024), ceptimus (02-23-2024), Crumb (02-20-2024), fragment (02-20-2024), JoeP (02-20-2024)
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