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  #7851  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
What do you expect? He begins his book with about 40 pages of alternately blowing his own trumpet and vilifying real scientists. The entire first part of the book is one giant pre-emptive excuse and an attempt to equate all disagreement with bias before he even starts. Pompous ass that he was.
That ends my conversation with you Vivisectus. You blew it.
Hey don't kill the messenger! I didn't write that marvellous piece of conceit where Lessans calls a professor on the phone and just does not understand that he does not even get to explain how his self-education is superior to that of a man whose education he knows nothing about!

Or where he says he is a better thinker than spinoza, buddha and jesus, to name but a few.

Honestly. The whole book is peppered with Lessans telling Lessans that he is a wonderful genius. A person who writes like that is a pompous ass, plain and simple.
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  #7852  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
We have been convinced for a long time now that Lessans made no discoveries and you are arguing from a faith position. You are well aware of this because we have told you so point blank.

Leave or don't leave, but why do you keep threatening to leave every few days? What's that about?
I don't care what you believe LadyShea. From what I have observed, you can't even get past the first sentence of the first paragraph of Chapter One. You are the type of person that if I say red, you say blue. If I say one plus one equals two, you say no it's three. If I say death is the opposite of life, you say it's not; if I say up, you say down. You're sabotaging yourself. We have no basis for communication, so the conversation is over.
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  #7853  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
This is an actual discovery and there's no need to go searching for what has already been discovered.
Assertion based on faith

Quote:
I really have no desire to converse with you anymore on this subject.
Then don't

Quote:
Go back to your neuroscience which will only confirm what Lessans knew all along.
No, it really won't, peacegirl. Science proves Lessans wrong again and again and again. Neuroscience will prove him wrong many more times.
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  #7854  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
It would be fun to take a look at your fathers version of reincarnation. Let us say we develop a powerful technology that allows us to completely rebuild a human body as it is at a particular instant. We record the state of a body, and then completely destroy it.

At this point, that person is dead. We would have the potential to bring it back though. So will that person continue to exist in the way Lessans would expect it or not? And what happens when we recreate that person?

Now let us imagine a technology that completely alters all our memories and thought-patterns. We activate it, removing personality A and replacing it with personality B. A has ceased to exist, and could be considered dead. Potentially we could change it back though, and make B cease to exist. What about that case?

And this brings up the question of what is consciousness? Is it firmly linked to the physical structure, or is it something more etherial that is superimposed onto the physical? In either case is it possible for the consciousness to survive without the physical body being present and functioning? Would a technology ever be capable of recording and reproducing that consciousness? It may be possible someday to scan and record the exact configuration of the body and record the exact neurological pattern and activity of the brain and nervous system, but if the body is destroyed, another created, will re-establishing the recorded nervous impulses recreate the original consciousness, or will it be a new individual regardless of it having acquired the memories of the former person? Religions claim that each person has a 'soul' that survives the life of that person and if this is so would that 'soul' just hang around and wait for the new physical person to be created or would it come back if it had departed. Or would the newly created person have it's own individual 'soul'? Lessans seemed to be refering to something like this, something like a computer hard drive that is wiped and reloaded with new programing and then installed in a new body.
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  #7855  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!
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  #7856  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
What do you expect? He begins his book with about 40 pages of alternately blowing his own trumpet and vilifying real scientists. The entire first part of the book is one giant pre-emptive excuse and an attempt to equate all disagreement with bias before he even starts. Pompous ass that he was.
That ends my conversation with you Vivisectus. You blew it.
Hey don't kill the messenger! I didn't write that marvellous piece of conceit where Lessans calls a professor on the phone and just does not understand that he does not even get to explain how his self-education is superior to that of a man whose education he knows nothing about!

Or where he says he is a better thinker than spinoza, buddha and jesus, to name but a few.

Honestly. The whole book is peppered with Lessans telling Lessans that he is a wonderful genius. A person who writes like that is a pompous ass, plain and simple.
Goodbye Vivisectus.
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  #7857  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
This is an actual discovery and there's no need to go searching for what has already been discovered.
Assertion based on faith

Quote:
I really have no desire to converse with you anymore on this subject.
Then don't

Quote:
Go back to your neuroscience which will only confirm what Lessans knew all along.
No, it really won't, peacegirl. Science proves Lessans wrong again and again and again. Neuroscience will prove him wrong many more times.
Goodbye LadyShea.
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  #7858  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:12 PM
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Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
It would be fun to take a look at your fathers version of reincarnation. Let us say we develop a powerful technology that allows us to completely rebuild a human body as it is at a particular instant. We record the state of a body, and then completely destroy it.

At this point, that person is dead. We would have the potential to bring it back though. So will that person continue to exist in the way Lessans would expect it or not? And what happens when we recreate that person?

Now let us imagine a technology that completely alters all our memories and thought-patterns. We activate it, removing personality A and replacing it with personality B. A has ceased to exist, and could be considered dead. Potentially we could change it back though, and make B cease to exist. What about that case?

And this brings up the question of what is consciousness? Is it firmly linked to the physical structure, or is it something more etherial that is superimposed onto the physical? In either case is it possible for the consciousness to survive without the physical body being present and functioning? Would a technology ever be capable of recording and reproducing that consciousness? It may be possible someday to scan and record the exact configuration of the body and record the exact neurological pattern and activity of the brain and nervous system, but if the body is destroyed, another created, will re-establishing the recorded nervous impulses recreate the original consciousness, or will it be a new individual regardless of it having acquired the memories of the former person? Religions claim that each person has a 'soul' that survives the life of that person and if this is so would that 'soul' just hang around and wait for the new physical person to be created or would it come back if it had departed. Or would the newly created person have it's own individual 'soul'? Lessans seemed to be refering to something like this, something like a computer hard drive that is wiped and reloaded with new programing and then installed in a new body.
Personally, I see no reason to assume the existence of a soul, and I am not aware of a good definition of a soul either. It seems a problematic concept to me.
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  #7859  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
What do you expect? He begins his book with about 40 pages of alternately blowing his own trumpet and vilifying real scientists. The entire first part of the book is one giant pre-emptive excuse and an attempt to equate all disagreement with bias before he even starts. Pompous ass that he was.
That ends my conversation with you Vivisectus. You blew it.
Hey don't kill the messenger! I didn't write that marvellous piece of conceit where Lessans calls a professor on the phone and just does not understand that he does not even get to explain how his self-education is superior to that of a man whose education he knows nothing about!

Or where he says he is a better thinker than spinoza, buddha and jesus, to name but a few.

Honestly. The whole book is peppered with Lessans telling Lessans that he is a wonderful genius. A person who writes like that is a pompous ass, plain and simple.
Goodbye Vivisectus.
See you when you get bored again, Peacegirl.
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  #7860  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
We have been convinced for a long time now that Lessans made no discoveries and you are arguing from a faith position. You are well aware of this because we have told you so point blank.

Leave or don't leave, but why do you keep threatening to leave every few days? What's that about?
I don't care what you believe LadyShea. From what I have observed, you can't even get past the first sentence of the first paragraph of Chapter One. You are the type of person that if I say red, you say blue. If I say one plus one equals two, you say no it's three. If I say death is the opposite of life, you say it's not; if I say up, you say down. You're sabotaging yourself. We have no basis for communication, so the conversation is over.

I merely responded to this statement of yours

Quote:
Does anyone want to follow Lessans' reasoning, or are you all convinced that he doesn't have a discovery, in which case this thread is over.
If you didn't care what the answer was why did you ask the question?
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  #7861  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Leave or don't leave, but why do you keep threatening to leave every few days? What's that about?
It's about mental illness. She can no more leave than an irretrievably dead person. She needs to get help.
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  #7862  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!
Put me down for 2 days plus or minus 12 hours.
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  #7863  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
We have been convinced for a long time now that Lessans made no discoveries and you are arguing from a faith position. You are well aware of this because we have told you so point blank.

Leave or don't leave, but why do you keep threatening to leave every few days? What's that about?

Perhaps she thinks that someone actually cares about the book in the way she thinks we should. Really, I do care if she were here or not. Here I know where she is posting and get to watch the fun as she tries present her ideas and everyone tells her how things really work. If she really left I would have fewer reasons to come here and if I really wanted to watch her struggles I'd need to hunt where she was now posting. I guess I like train wrecks more than I thought, but not as much as Gomez Addams.
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  #7864  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
This is an actual discovery and there's no need to go searching for what has already been discovered.
Assertion based on faith

Quote:
I really have no desire to converse with you anymore on this subject.
Then don't

Quote:
Go back to your neuroscience which will only confirm what Lessans knew all along.
No, it really won't, peacegirl. Science proves Lessans wrong again and again and again. Neuroscience will prove him wrong many more times.
Goodbye LadyShea.
See you tomorrow!
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  #7865  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
We have been convinced for a long time now that Lessans made no discoveries and you are arguing from a faith position. You are well aware of this because we have told you so point blank.

Leave or don't leave, but why do you keep threatening to leave every few days? What's that about?
I don't care what you believe LadyShea. From what I have observed, you can't even get past the first sentence of the first paragraph of Chapter One. You are the type of person that if I say red, you say blue. If I say one plus one equals two, you say no it's three. If I say death is the opposite of life, you say it's not; if I say up, you say down. You're sabotaging yourself. We have no basis for communication, so the conversation is over.
In peacegirls ill mind, unless you accept the chapter as the "truth" then you didn't read it. To "truly" read it is to accept it.
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  #7866  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Does anyone here think Lessans has a discovery by the way? I sure don't.

Start a pole and we can deside this once and for all.
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  #7867  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Personally, I see no reason to assume the existence of a soul, and I am not aware of a good definition of a soul either. It seems a problematic concept to me.

And that is why it has been debated back and forth ad nauseam for a long time. Either we do or we do not, and debate will not solve it.

Sometimes the debate can be enjoyable as long as no-one really thinks they are giving an absolute answer.
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  #7868  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!

But before she can stay away, she actually has to leave. Can you verify that? Without a verified starting time all bets are off.

Put me down for 6 hours, just enough time for lunch and a nap. And her meds to kick in.
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  #7869  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist View Post
In peacegirls ill mind, unless you accept the chapter as the "truth" then you didn't read it. To "truly" read it is to accept it.

It's good to have this restated occasionally, but it is old news, about 10 years old.
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  #7870  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!

But before she can stay away, she actually has to leave. Can you verify that? Without a verified starting time all bets are off.
Her profile should state the date/time of last visit. Right now it says

Last Activity: Today 11:10 AM
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  #7871  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Personally, I see no reason to assume the existence of a soul, and I am not aware of a good definition of a soul either. It seems a problematic concept to me.
Well, we could just assume, for sake of argument, that the 'soul' exists and see where it takes us. You could start with a 'working' definition of a 'soul' if you like.
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  #7872  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!

But before she can stay away, she actually has to leave. Can you verify that? Without a verified starting time all bets are off.
Her profile should state the date/time of last visit. Right now it says

Last Activity: Today 11:10 AM

Well that means I missed by 36 minutes. can we do closest?
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  #7873  
Old 02-08-2012, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!

But before she can stay away, she actually has to leave. Can you verify that? Without a verified starting time all bets are off.
Her profile should state the date/time of last visit. Right now it says

Last Activity: Today 11:10 AM

OK, I see a problem the time stamp on the post does not corospond to what you read on her profile, there needs to be a syncronizing to keep track.
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  #7874  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Bets are now being taken on how long she will manage to stay away!

But before she can stay away, she actually has to leave. Can you verify that? Without a verified starting time all bets are off.
Her profile should state the date/time of last visit. Right now it says

Last Activity: Today 11:10 AM
Latest bulletin, I just checked Peacegirls profile and the last activity was at 5:10 pm, LadyShea, did you reset the time on your account to your local time?
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  #7875  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
It would be fun to take a look at your fathers version of reincarnation. Let us say we develop a powerful technology that allows us to completely rebuild a human body as it is at a particular instant. We record the state of a body, and then completely destroy it.

At this point, that person is dead. We would have the potential to bring it back though. So will that person continue to exist in the way Lessans would expect it or not? And what happens when we recreate that person?

Now let us imagine a technology that completely alters all our memories and thought-patterns. We activate it, removing personality A and replacing it with personality B. A has ceased to exist, and could be considered dead. Potentially we could change it back though, and make B cease to exist. What about that case?

And this brings up the question of what is consciousness? Is it firmly linked to the physical structure, or is it something more etherial that is superimposed onto the physical? In either case is it possible for the consciousness to survive without the physical body being present and functioning? Would a technology ever be capable of recording and reproducing that consciousness? It may be possible someday to scan and record the exact configuration of the body and record the exact neurological pattern and activity of the brain and nervous system, but if the body is destroyed, another created, will re-establishing the recorded nervous impulses recreate the original consciousness, or will it be a new individual regardless of it having acquired the memories of the former person? Religions claim that each person has a 'soul' that survives the life of that person and if this is so would that 'soul' just hang around and wait for the new physical person to be created or would it come back if it had departed. Or would the newly created person have it's own individual 'soul'? Lessans seemed to be refering to something like this, something like a computer hard drive that is wiped and reloaded with new programing and then installed in a new body.
I can't believe this has gotten into a conversation about souls and reincarnation from the simple observation that death is the opposite of life. If someone dies, there is no more electrical activity. There are no more inner or outer movements of any kind. If someone's soul is created in a new body, although that's pure fiction...then he isn't dead. If someone is on a heart/bypass machine, then he isn't dead; if someone drowned but still has metabolic activity, then he isn't dead.

Death is the permanent termination of the biological functions that sustain a living organism. Phenomena which commonly bring about death include old age, predation, malnutrition, disease, and accidents or trauma resulting in terminal injury.

Death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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