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  #7876  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Well yeah, that's my time, US Central time. No matter she's online right now replying to this thread.
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  #7877  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
I can't believe this has gotten into a conversation about souls and reincarnation from the simple observation that death is the opposite of life.
LOL, what do you care what people talk about in your absence? Aren't you leaving forever again?
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  #7878  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF's Newb Rules
6. Posting crazy things has predictable results.
Guess what happens when you post crazy things! People treat you like you're crazy. Now guess what happens when you post stupid things.

7. Learn to deal.
:ff: does not have moderators. Posts are deleted only in a very narrow set of circumstances (e.g. commercial spam or illegal content). There is no censor to intervene on your behalf. Do not ask for someone to be banned simply because that person says things you do not like. It will not happen.

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Also, if you decide to gtfo, stay tfo. The only thing funnier than drama exit flailing is drama exit flailing followed by one or more returns.
You are still a newb after almost a year
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  #7879  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Personally, I see no reason to assume the existence of a soul, and I am not aware of a good definition of a soul either. It seems a problematic concept to me.
Well, we could just assume, for sake of argument, that the 'soul' exists and see where it takes us. You could start with a 'working' definition of a 'soul' if you like.
Here's what Lessans had to say about words such as soul and reincarnation.

Decline and Fall of All Evil: Chapter Ten: p. 484

There are all kinds of explanations about the
hereafter, this spiritual world of souls, but I am not interested in
words, just the flesh. You are in for quite a pleasant surprise, but
because manís mind has been so filled with words such as afterlife,
soul, spirit, reincarnation, heaven, etc., which have been used to
explain death, although they have absolutely no meaning whatsoever,
we were unable to extract the pure unadulterated mathematical
relations that existed when these words were removed. Theologians
and other philosophers received intuitive incursions that man was
truly immortal, but they had no way of communicating or translating
their feelings into language that could not be denied simply because
they were completely confused with words and beliefs.
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  #7880  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Where's that definition, Peacegirl?

What about Lessans' presuppositions on conscience, Peacegirl?
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  #7881  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
I can't believe this has gotten into a conversation about souls and reincarnation from the simple observation that death is the opposite of life.
LOL, what do you care what people talk about in your absence? Aren't you leaving forever again?
I didn't say I was leaving this time. I said I didn't have any reason to converse with you because there's no basis for communication.
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  #7882  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.
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  #7883  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Spacemonkey View Post
Where's that definition, Peacegirl?

What about Lessans' presuppositions on conscience, Peacegirl?
Either you understand his definition of determinism, or you don't, and I won't move forward until you do. I doubt if that's gonna happen.
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  #7884  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
I didn't say I was leaving this time. I said I didn't have any reason to converse with you because there's no basis for communication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
are you all convinced that he doesn't have a discovery, in which case this thread is over.
So this was not a threat to leave forever?
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  #7885  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
I can't believe this has gotten into a conversation about souls and reincarnation from the simple observation that death is the opposite of life.
LOL, what do you care what people talk about in your absence? Aren't you leaving forever again?
I didn't say I was leaving this time. I said I didn't have any reason to converse with you because there's no basis for communication.
Oh I get it! The conversation was (P) over, and what you are doing now is now conversing but (P) conversing. Probably because you live in (P) reality.
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  #7886  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
I didn't say I was leaving this time. I said I didn't have any reason to converse with you because there's no basis for communication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
are you all convinced that he doesn't have a discovery, in which case this thread is over.
So this was not a threat to leave forever?
That was an attempt to either get people to listen (which they aren't), or I am leaving. My response to you had nothing to do with that comment.
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  #7887  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemonkey View Post
Where's that definition, Peacegirl?

What about Lessans' presuppositions on conscience, Peacegirl?
Either you understand his definition of determinism, or you don't, and I won't move forward until you do. I doubt if that's gonna happen.
I didn't ask for his definition of determinism. That's not the definition I'm talking about. I asked for a definition of "greater satisfaction" which would render his satisfaction principle non-circular, and you still haven't given me one.
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  #7888  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.
You make it sound as if these words are obsolete. They still are an important aspect of many philosophies and religions, even though we know a lot more about the brain.

Soul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #7889  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by Spacemonkey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemonkey View Post
Where's that definition, Peacegirl?

What about Lessans' presuppositions on conscience, Peacegirl?
Either you understand his definition of determinism, or you don't, and I won't move forward until you do. I doubt if that's gonna happen.
I didn't ask for his definition of determinism. That's not the definition I'm talking about. I asked for a definition of "greater satisfaction" which would render his satisfaction principle non-circular, and you still haven't given me one.
Spacemonkey, I told you where his proof begins in the first chapter. You have yet to show me that you understand his proof, or to ask me any questions that might help you understand. And I gave the definition of "greater" satisfaction. Greater satisfaction is the movement in the direction of a more satisfying position than what the present position offers. This is not an end point.

Last edited by peacegirl; 02-08-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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  #7890  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
You make it sound as if these words are obsolete. They still are an important aspect of many philosophies and religions, even though we know a lot more about the brain.

Soul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a religious term. Sometimes it is borrowed by woo-merchants who claim to be non-religious though. They are "spiritual", and even vaguer term that seems to mean "person who believes in things that are completely undetectable"
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  #7891  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Quote:
I didn't say I was leaving this time. I said I didn't have any reason to converse with you because there's no basis for communication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
are you all convinced that he doesn't have a discovery, in which case this thread is over.
So this was not a threat to leave forever?
That was an attempt to either get people to listen (which they aren't), or I am leaving. My response to you had nothing to do with that comment.
peacegirl, people are reading your posts. They just find them completely unconvincing. This has been the case for almost a year now. If you weren't so batshit crazy you would have stopped long ago. Lessans is a non-starter.
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  #7892  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.

And just how much better are we at it now, relatively speaking?
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  #7893  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Quote:
You make it sound as if these words are obsolete. They still are an important aspect of many philosophies and religions, even though we know a lot more about the brain.

Soul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is a religious term. Sometimes it is borrowed by woo-merchants who claim to be non-religious though. They are "spiritual", and even vaguer term that seems to mean "person who believes in things that are completely undetectable"

Well if that includes 'Invisible Pink Unicorns', then according to some people on this forum, I'm in.
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  #7894  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.

And just how much better are we at it now, relatively speaking?
According to the cognitive scientists that use machine learning, they have a model to make sense of neural activity in terms of cognition and even imagination. Things are moving fast.
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  #7895  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.
You make it sound as if these words are obsolete. They still are an important aspect of many philosophies and religions, even though we know a lot more about the brain.
People have held onto the terms, sure, out of adherence to, and faith in, their religious traditions. They've had to move the goalposts quite a bit, as they are used now only to describe some immaterial and undetectable part of humans that is immortal, rather than a known part of humans, consciousness, that can be talked to and observed.
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  #7896  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.

And just how much better are we at it now, relatively speaking?
We know a lot more about the brain. Neuroscience is moving incredibly fast.

Take a look at this series Charlie Rose - Charlie Rose: The Brain Series and be prepared to check out names and terms used for more rabbit hole adventures into the brain.
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  #7897  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Soul and spirit were just words attempting to describe consciousness in a time when humans knew nothing about the brain or how it worked.
You make it sound as if these words are obsolete. They still are an important aspect of many philosophies and religions, even though we know a lot more about the brain.
People have held onto the terms, sure, out of adherence to, and faith in, their religious traditions. They've had to move the goalposts quite a bit, as they are used now only to describe some immaterial and undetectable part of humans that is immortal, rather than a known part of humans, consciousness, that can be talked to and observed.
I don't think they moved the goalposts very much at all. Religion has always considered the spiritual realm (heaven, hell, souls, angels, etc.) beyond what is visibly detectable until you cross over to the other side.
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  #7898  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

It was widely considered that the soul was the conscious part of a human that talks and thinks and feels.

Some may still think that, but most modern religious people understand that consciousness is a function of a living brain, and so they've posited the soul as yet something else, something apart from consciousness or personality.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
People have held onto the terms, sure, out of adherence to, and faith in, their religious traditions. They've had to move the goalposts quite a bit, as they are used now only to describe some immaterial and undetectable part of humans that is immortal, rather than a known part of humans, consciousness, that can be talked to and observed.
I am not at all sure that this is an accurate description of the history of these thoughts. So far as I can tell, the belief that these were immaterial things rather than material things existed centuries before we had modern neuroscience.

I don't think the goalposts have been moved in general on this one; the distinction between material things and non-material things goes back at least as far as Plato, and probably further.
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  #7900  
Old 02-08-2012, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

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So chalk up history as something else you've never studied.

It was widely considered that the soul was the conscious part of a human that talks and thinks and feels.
Citations? Furthermore, "widely" strikes me as leaving thoroughly open the possibility that there were other views long before modern science.

Quote:
Some may still think that, but most modern religious people understand that consciousness is merely a function of a living brain, and so they've made the soul something else, something apart from consciousness or personality.
This is a gross oversimplification.

You're getting translation errors; if you take claims from a radically different framework, and translate them, you end up with things which are very different from the claims.
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