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  #126  
Old 11-19-2023, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Not any more it isn't.
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  #127  
Old 11-23-2023, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

An Open Letter on the Misuse of Holocaust Memory | Omer Bartov | The New York Review of Books
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  #128  
Old 11-23-2023, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

This was a weird thing that made news:

Susan Sarandon, Melissa Barrera dropped by companies for Israel comments | AP News

Quote:
Spyglass Media Group, the production company behind the upcoming “Scream VII,” acknowledged Barrera’s exit from the horror franchise. The Mexican-born actress, who starred in “In the Heights” and the two recent “Scream” installments, had posted statements on Instagram Stories calling the war “genocide and ethnic cleansing.”

“Gaza,” she wrote, “is currently being treated like a concentration camp.”

Spyglass said in a statement that its position “is unequivocally clear: We have zero tolerance for antisemitism or the incitement of hate in any form, including false references to genocide, ethnic cleansing, Holocaust distortion or anything that flagrantly crosses the line into hate speech.”
I haven't hunted down everything by Barrera, but based on what I read, and the news, she didn't say anything false. This looks a lot like "any criticism of Israel's action is anti-semitism."

Sarandon looks like she's gotten more into a Fonda-like mess. From what I can tell, her speech was a lot less measured than Barrera.
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  #129  
Old 11-24-2023, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by specious_reasons
This looks a lot like "any criticism of Israel's action is anti-semitism."
One of the many things I've learned over the past six weeks is that organizations that I have always assumed to be the "good guys", like the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), are actually extremely powerful and aggressive pro-Zionist propagandists. As an example of that I saw that some celebrity tweeted a critique of Zionism, and the ADL quoted that tweet and called it a demonstration of antisemitism. I completely get it when ordinary people conflate antisemitism and anti-Zionism (or anti-Israelism), but it is not possible that representatives of the ADL don't know what they're doing when they do that. Even more impressive is their ability to portray anything pro-Palestinian as anti-Jewish.
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  #130  
Old 11-24-2023, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Everyone, and by everyone I mean the American mainstream media and social media because who else is there, seems to be continually angsty about Naziism and holocaust comparisons. And naturally. It's a poor and barely useful comparison.

Have they all forgotten about apartheid? The comparison between that National Party's actions and Likud's is much more apt. It's about depriving the original residents of an area of land of democratic and economic rights. This comparison has been mentioned further up this thrad but I don't understand (or I'm afraid I do understand) why more isn't being made of it in media and political circles.
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  #131  
Old 11-25-2023, 12:09 AM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
are actually extremely powerful and aggressive pro-Zionist propagandists.
I'm reminded of a few anti-war protests I went to in SF in the 00's where the organizers handed out hundreds of premade anti-war signs that oddly just happened to have a pro-israel message on the back, despite nothing about the protest being related to Israel, and the organization never referencing Israel. It was really only once you had a sign and started reading the back that it seemed like we were all marching not to end the Iraq war but in support of Israel.

I quickly stopped taking signs from others after that.
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  #132  
Old 11-25-2023, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by JoeP
Have they all forgotten about apartheid? The comparison between that National Party's actions and Likud's is much more apt.
That comparison comes up constantly in the media I consume, but I consume very little of the mainstream news sources. The use of the term 'apartheid' to describe Israel was one of the reasons an actress was recently fired from the production of Scream VII for "hate speech".

Quote:
“There’s just no excuse for not condemning Hamas and demanding the release of the hostages. Hollywood was quick to declare Black Lives Matter, as they should, and Time’s Up, as they should, and myriad other important causes,” Greenblatt tells Variety. “There’s plenty of room for criticism of Israel or to voice concerns about the ongoing war in Gaza, but that doesn’t provide celebrities and industry reps with an open license to wage unfair accusations against Israel, such as accusing it of ‘apartheid’ or ‘genocide’ or, worse, to celebrate the actions of Hamas terrorists.” source
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  #133  
Old 11-25-2023, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Regarding comparisons to apartheid: Coleman Hughes attacks comparisons between Palestine and the struggle of blacks for freedom in South Africa and America – Why Evolution Is True

Personally, I find it hard to support, even on the basis of security, the wholesale bombing--and killing--that Israel is now engaging in in Gaza. Nor do concerns of security justify the violence against Palestinians that Jewish settlers are committing in the West Bank. So, if technically not apartheid, are we witnessing attempts at ethnic cleansing? What’s the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing? | PBS NewsHour
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  #134  
Old 11-26-2023, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

I’m not willing to spend the time refuting every sentence of that post and the article it references, but I’ll point out some of the more glaring nonsense.
Quote:
There are other arguments for “apartheid” of course, including the claims that Israel oppresses Gaza or the Palestinian territories, but I don’t want to deal with those right now […] But I digress. Back to Coleman, who I was glad to see agrees with me that the real apartheid state in this conflict is Palestine.
This is the real meat of the blog post and the article it references. You really don’t need to read anything else to understand how intellectually lazy or dishonest the author(s) are. It doesn't really matter whether 'apartheid' is the exact correct word to describe the state of Israel. It is indisputable that Palestinians, particularly in Gaza and the West Bank, have their liberty severely curtailed by the Israeli state. That the author(s) believe the bs about it being necessary for the security of the Jewish people is not an actual justification for it. The idea that the powerless Palestinians are the real oppressors is just :chefskiss:


Quote:
Consider the ghoulish, antisemitic TV programs that*indoctrinate*Palestinian children. There is no Israeli equivalent.
Either the author has never seen the IDF’s social media pages or they are lying, which is of course the much more likely explanation for this comment.

Quote:
The degree of historical ignorance—probably willful ignorance—of sloganeering in this war is appalling. We have not only the “apartheid state” trope, but also the “from the river to the sea” mantra, and, finally, the “anti-Zionism is not antisemitism” claim. I’ve already discussed the last one, explained why it’s wrong, and discussed why there’s no coherent interpretation of antizionism that isn’t at bottom antisemitism. But I’ll leave that one for now.
It is objectively true that anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, and the degree of historical ignorance—probably willful ignorance—of claiming otherwise is obvious to anyone whose agenda is not the unconditional support of Israel.
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  #135  
Old 11-26-2023, 03:55 PM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

With the recent ceasefire both sides have agreed to release women and children first.
Wait, what do you mean both sides?

PBSThe release of the Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails came just hours after two dozen hostages, including 13 Israelis, were released from captivity in Gaza in the initial exchange of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners during the four-day cease-fire that started Friday.

Under the deal, Hamas is to release at least 50 hostages, and Israel 150 Palestinian prisoners, over the four days. Israel said the truce can be extended an extra day for every additional 10 hostages freed.

Although the atmosphere was festive in the town of Beitunia near Israel’s hulking Ofer Prison in the West Bank, people were on edge.

The Israeli government has ordered police to shut down celebrations over the release. Israeli security forces at one point unleashed tear gas canisters on the crowds, sending young men, old women and small children sprinting away as they wept and screamed in pain.

“The army is trying to take this moment away from us but they can’t,” Mays Foqaha said as she tumbled into the arms of her newly released 18-year-old friend, Nour al-Taher from Nablus, who was arrested during a protest in September at the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. ”This is our day of victory.”

The Palestinian detainees freed Friday included 24 women, some of whom had been sentenced to years-long prison terms over attempted stabbings and other attacks on Israeli security forces. Others had been accused of incitement on social media.

There were also the 15 male teenagers, most of them charged with stone-throwing and “supporting terrorism,” a broadly defined accusation that underscores Israel’s long-running crackdown on young Palestinian men as violence surges in the occupied territory.

In West Bank, Palestinians rejoice over release of women and minors from Israeli prisons | PBS NewsHour
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  #136  
Old 11-26-2023, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

That guy doesn't understand how Apartheid in South Africa worked. For example he tries to rest a lot of argument on how Palestinian territory is separate, without realising that South Africa too maintained a fiction that certain territories were independent black countries.

This seems relevant: A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW
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  #137  
Old 11-27-2023, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

https://readcultured.com/there-is-so...n-6fa1f81eeff9
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  #138  
Old 11-27-2023, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
With the recent ceasefire both sides have agreed to release women and children first.
Wait, what do you mean both sides?
Right? And this report from Save The Children is chilling:

STRIPPED, BEATEN AND BLINDFOLDED: NEW RESEARCH REVEALS ONGOING VIOLENCE AND ABUSE OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN DETAINED BY ISRAELI MILITARY

Quote:
Save the Children’s new consultation showed that:
  • During arrest, 42% of children were injured, including gunshot wounds and broken bones, and 65% of children were arrested during the night, mostly between midnight and dawn. Half of all arrests took place in the children’s home.
  • The majority of children experienced appalling levels of physical and emotional abuse, including being beaten (86%), being threatened with harm (70%), and hit with sticks or guns (60%).
  • Some children reported violence and abuse of a sexual nature, including being hit or touched on the genitals and 69% reported being strip searched.
  • 60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.
  • Children were denied access to basic services, 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare.
  • 58% of children were denied visits or communication with their family while detained.
  • The majority of children detained are boys – a trend reflected by the survey, with boys representing 97% of the respondents.
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  #139  
Old 11-27-2023, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
With the recent ceasefire both sides have agreed to release women and children first.
Wait, what do you mean both sides?
Right? And this report from Save The Children is chilling:

STRIPPED, BEATEN AND BLINDFOLDED: NEW RESEARCH REVEALS ONGOING VIOLENCE AND ABUSE OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN DETAINED BY ISRAELI MILITARY

Quote:
Save the Children’s new consultation showed that:
  • During arrest, 42% of children were injured, including gunshot wounds and broken bones, and 65% of children were arrested during the night, mostly between midnight and dawn. Half of all arrests took place in the children’s home.
  • The majority of children experienced appalling levels of physical and emotional abuse, including being beaten (86%), being threatened with harm (70%), and hit with sticks or guns (60%).
  • Some children reported violence and abuse of a sexual nature, including being hit or touched on the genitals and 69% reported being strip searched.
  • 60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.
  • Children were denied access to basic services, 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare.
  • 58% of children were denied visits or communication with their family while detained.
  • The majority of children detained are boys – a trend reflected by the survey, with boys representing 97% of the respondents.
IDF - Creating the Terrorists of Tomorrow
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  #140  
Old 11-27-2023, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Not just IDF, Likud as well and Netanyahu specifically.

I'm reminded of the item on LWT With John Oliver that the Israeli government were funneling actual suitcases of cash to Hamas.
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  #141  
Old 11-27-2023, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Meanwhile, a hundred years plus of history in maps.

Israel-Palestine conflict: A brief history in maps and charts Al Jazeera
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  #142  
Old 11-29-2023, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Anyone got recommendations for audiobooks or podcasts on the history of the Palestine/Israel conflict?
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  #143  
Old 11-29-2023, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Search for Dr Yara Hawari
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  #144  
Old 11-29-2023, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

The book I recommended earlier, The Hundred Years War on Palestine is available as an audiobook. Also On Palestine, by Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappe. I ordered that book but haven't received it yet, but I've heard good things about Pappe. He was interviewed recently on The Majority Report:

Understanding The Myths And Realities Of Israel | Ilan Pappe | TMR - YouTube

I am a patron and fan of the American Prestige podcast, and they have a whole section of content on the topic that they have unlocked for wider consumption.

Someone on TikTok recommended A Peace To End All Peace, by David Fromkin, which is also available as an audiobook.
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  #145  
Old 11-29-2023, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Cheers!
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  #146  
Old 11-30-2023, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Ezra Klein has posted several podcasts over the past few weeks addressing Israel/Palestine, including guests presenting the views of either side.

https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast
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  #147  
Old 12-02-2023, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

In my email:

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Two Truths in One Heart; Two Peoples in One Land

Beyt Tikkun is excited to host Roots/Shorashim/Judur (on Zoom)(Event Site) – an Israeli-Palestinian grassroots initiative for understanding, nonviolence, and transformation among Israelis and Palestinians.

On Sunday, December 3rd at 10:00am-11:30am PT (11:00am MT, 12:00pm CT, 1:00pm ET), Rabbi Cat Zavis will lead a discussion with founders Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger and Noor Awad. During our time together, Rabbi Hanan and Noor will share about their work, what’s happening on the ground now, how the recent events have impacted their work, and what their vision is for the future. As time allows, there will be an opportunity for questions from participants.

Roots/Shorashim/Judur is a unique network of local Palestinians and Israelis who have come to see each other as the partners we both need to make changes to end our conflict. Based on mutual recognition of each People's national identity and connection to the Land, we are challenging the assumptions our communities hold about each other, building trust, and creating a new discourse around the conflict in our respective societies.

Roots/Shorashim/Judur has created and operates the only joint Israeli-Palestinian community center in the entire West Bank. This safe, holy space hosts social, religious, and educational activities, bringing together hundreds of Palestinians and Israelis who begin to realize that there are two truths, two stories – not one – in this land, and the only way forward is to cherish both.

At Roots local people learn to take responsibility for making change. Where there seems to be no hope, hope is born anew. From the bottom up, we have created a model for a better future.

The event is free for Beyt Tikkun members. For non-members, we ask for a minimum donation of $5.00. We seek to cover our costs for the event. A portion of any additional monies raised beyond our expenses will be donated to Roots, in addition to the fee paid to Roots for the event itself.

Please click here to donate. After you donate, you will receive an email with a link to register to receive the Zoom link for the event.

We hope to see you there.

With blessings for the possibility of justice and peace,

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  #148  
Old 12-03-2023, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

Last night I watched two debates on the viability of a so-called "two-state solution" for Israel and Palestine. Both sides made some strong arguments, but I'm still not sure who "won" either debate. The strongest argument (for me) for the two-state solution is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are deeply nationalistic, so living peacefully together in one state is impossible. On the flip-side, the opposition (Gideon Levy in particular) makes a really strong argument that the Israeli government has been building settlements non-stop for 50 years across many different administrations, indicating that there is not now and never has been any political will for a two-state solution, thus rendering it impossible. Anyway I think both are worth watching. For some reason the Oxford one is only a playlist of the speakers, whereas the Cambridge one is the whole debate.

Oxford (2016): Debate | Two-State Solution in Middle East - YouTube

Cambridge (2018): This House Believes the Two-State Solution is Dead | Cambridge Union - YouTube
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  #149  
Old 12-03-2023, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

I don't get this "Israel won't accept it" argument against the two state solution. It seems, among other things, a logical error - assuming the solution, excluding the middle, etc. Also, defeatist. Also, it seems very much one side pushing an agenda with misinformation.
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  #150  
Old 12-03-2023, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Standing With Israel and Condemning Hamas

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Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
I don't get this "Israel won't accept it" argument against the two state solution. It seems, among other things, a logical error - assuming the solution, excluding the middle, etc. Also, defeatist. Also, it seems very much one side pushing an agenda with misinformation.
I logged into that Zoom presentation by Roots this morning. One of the major obstacles to a two-state solution is that many Jews, and many Palestinians, see the entire expanse from the Jordan to the Mediterranean as "theirs", and deny peoplehood to the other--Jews will say there's no such thing as a "Palestinian"; they're simply "Arabs," and should be just as happy to live in one Arab country or another. Palestinians will say there's no such thing as a Jewish nationality--it's simply another religion. This makes it difficult for either side to accept a two-state solution.

Until October 7, Roots, a group made up of Jewish settlers and Palestinians living in the West Bank, had sponsored the Dignity Center, the one place in the West Bank where Jews and Palestinians could meet. (Jewish-Muslim group working for peace in Israel to speak in Lancaster | Faith & Values | lancasteronline.com). Since October 7, they haven't been able to meet physically--but only the leaders have even been up to talking by Zoom. Israelis, by a large margin, are willing to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas, regardless of its toll on civilians.

Both representatives of Roots on the call--one, a rabbi and Jewish settler, and the other, a Palestinian living in Hebron--endorse the confederation concept proposed by One Land For All (ALandForAll).
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Thanks, from:
JoeP (12-04-2023), slimshady2357 (12-04-2023)
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