BBC Literacy Questionnaire - Page 4

erimir · #76 08-20-2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

1. What author do you own the most books by?
[...]
2. What book do you own the most copies of?
[...]
3. Did it bother you that both those questions ended with prepositions?

No but I wouldn't do it myself.

To be honest, that rule is so widely ignored by normal people (including me - I've never adhered to that quasi-English "rule") that I'm not even sure how to word those questions so they don't end in prepositions and they don't sound really awkward/like I'm a pompous asshole.

Would you say:

By which author do you own the most books?

Of which book do you own the most copies?

Celsus · #77 08-20-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erimir

Would you say:

By which author do you own the most books?

Of which book do you own the most copies?

I'd say "By which author have you the most books?" and "Of which book have you the most copies?" even if it sounds decidedly 19th century. The 'do you own' part makes the sentence cumbersome.

Languages evolve, so if usage is common enough, then it's correct enough. A grammar teacher from the 1960s would be far less tolerant of such usage than us. But prepositions move around all the time in language.

Frankly new forms of grammar are emerging all the time, and while we in the present might disdain them (particularly the whole "like" = "say" as in "I was like "Woah!", and he was like "What?" and then we were like "Dude!"), they do (eventually, over my grammar teacher's dead body) enrich our linguistic heritage. I think someone pointed out that the turning of a preposition into a verb is like totally rare in history and we have 1990s teenagers (that's us lolz!) to thank for this, which by his reckoning was the first time it had happened in English in a couple centuries. So pwnt and lol'd. (WTF?!)

Ensign Steve · #78 08-20-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

...the turning of a preposition into a verb...

Do you have an example of that?

It sounds cool but I'm drawing a blank.

Watser? · #79 08-20-2009, 01:55 PM

To out someone

Stormlight · #80 08-20-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erimir

Would you say:

By which author do you own the most books?

Of which book do you own the most copies?

I would. To this non-native speaker it sounds better than "What author do you own the most books by?"
:shrug:

LadyShea · #81 08-20-2009, 02:20 PM

My Luxembourger coworker used to talk about how appalled her English teacher would be by her speaking American*. I guess she was taught British English, which I think may be more likely to use the constructions Erimir posted.

*Learning British English in Europe makes much more sense of course.

My Spanish teacher taught us Castillian Spanish, rather than Mexican Spanish. In Colorado. I always thought that was dumb.

Ensign Steve · #82 08-20-2009, 02:22 PM

That is dumb. :unnod:

LadyShea · #83 08-20-2009, 02:24 PM

ainorite? I was like "Yeah, because I am bound to need to speak to Spaniards much more often than Mexicans. Here. In Colorado."

Adam · #84 08-20-2009, 02:45 PM

I learned Castillian Spanish in high school too because that's where my teacher was from...er....that's from where my teacher...was.

mickthinks · #85 08-20-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyShea

My Spanish teacher taught us Castillian Spanish, rather than Mexican Spanish. In Colorado. I always thought that was dumb.

It's puzzling maybe, but why denigrate the judgement behind it like that? Does it seem dumb because you know the reasoning, or because you don't?

lisarea · #86 08-20-2009, 02:59 PM

Ending sentences with prepositions isn't new. It's a perfectly natural construction, and it's been around longer than the rule prohibiting it. (That's kind of the nature of prescriptive grammars, after all.)

And I'm not really getting the preposition to verb thing still. 'Out' makes sense, but that way predates the 90s, and I can't think of any other ones like it.

I can think of lots of examples of words that can be used as a preposition or a verb particle, but none of an actual preposition being used as a verb.

Watser? · #87 08-20-2009, 03:01 PM

I couldn't think of any others either.

Ensign Steve · #88 08-20-2009, 03:03 PM

The "out" verb made me think of the "in" noun, as in "I have an in at the company" but other than that I got nothing.

Adam · #89 08-20-2009, 03:21 PM

For the record, I thought Celsus meant the prepositional usage of "like" had been turned into a verb meaning "say". I don't know if that's really accurate, though, because it's not the word "like" that's the verb meaning "to say" there, it's the phrase "to be like".

Celsus · #90 08-20-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

And I'm not really getting the preposition to verb thing still. 'Out' makes sense, but that way predates the 90s, and I can't think of any other ones like it.

I can think of lots of examples of words that can be used as a preposition or a verb particle, but none of an actual preposition being used as a verb.

In a few slangs and pidgins, it's quite common for people to say "Can you on the lights?" - basically what was initially 'turn on' was shortened to 'on' so that the preposition functions as a verb. As far as I know, people in Singapore (where it's common) haven't yet added a tense to 'on' but that's because Mandarin (whose grammar is the basis for Singlish) doesn't employ tenses. I encountered it in North London too among Carribean immigrants but can't remember if they used tenses with it. Another example is "He downed the food voraciously." where the verb (e.g. 'gulped') has been removed and a tense has now been added.

"I'm like 'Oh no!'" style preposition-as-verb is a completely new invention, hence 'like' (with no tenses) is as you say a verb particle in a brand new form of grammar for English (since it cannot be separated from the verb 'to be'). I don't know what to make of the gerondive 'toing-and-froing' though.

In a similar way in British English, it's common for someone to say "This food is crap as." where the final adjective has been removed so that the preposition now functions as the adjective. I'm not sure about the etymology but an 'over' in cricket appears to be another preposition-to-noun construction.

Ensign Steve · #91 08-20-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

For the record, I thought Celsus meant the prepositional usage of "like" had been turned into a verb meaning "say". I don't know if that's really accurate, though, because it's not the word "like" that's the verb meaning "to say" there, it's the phrase "to be like".

I thought that's what he was talking about at first, too, but I couldn't figure out how "like" is a preposition so I figured he must have meant something else.

Watser? · #92 08-20-2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

And I'm not really getting the preposition to verb thing still. 'Out' makes sense, but that way predates the 90s, and I can't think of any other ones like it.

I can think of lots of examples of words that can be used as a preposition or a verb particle, but none of an actual preposition being used as a verb.

In a few slangs and pidgins, it's quite common for people to say "Can you on the lights?" - basically what was initially 'turn on' was shortened to 'on' so that the preposition functions as a verb.

I have this Jamaican song from the mid 60s where they are talking about 'out the lights', so it is/was used there.

Ensign Steve · #93 08-20-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

Another example is "He downed the food voraciously."

There's another one. :thumbup:

Adam · #94 08-20-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

For the record, I thought Celsus meant the prepositional usage of "like" had been turned into a verb meaning "say". I don't know if that's really accurate, though, because it's not the word "like" that's the verb meaning "to say" there, it's the phrase "to be like".

I thought that's what he was talking about at first, too, but I couldn't figure out how "like" is a preposition so I figured he must have meant something else.

I had to look it up, cause I couldn't figure it out either. Apparently, in phrases such as "its like buttah", "like" is a preposition, at least according to Merriam-Webster.

Ensign Steve · #95 08-20-2009, 03:30 PM

AHA! It's all clear to me now.

Celsus · #96 08-20-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

For the record, I thought Celsus meant the prepositional usage of "like" had been turned into a verb meaning "say". I don't know if that's really accurate, though, because it's not the word "like" that's the verb meaning "to say" there, it's the phrase "to be like".

I thought that's what he was talking about at first, too, but I couldn't figure out how "like" is a preposition so I figured he must have meant something else.

I had to look it up, cause I couldn't figure it out either. Apparently, in phrases such as "its like buttah", "like" is a preposition, at least according to Merriam-Webster.

Yes, because the relationship is being compared, hence like in the form of a preposition turning into a strange new verb form (Like totally! and Like real! and then Like omg!)

mickthinks · #97 08-20-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

Another example is "He downed the food voraciously."

There's another one. :thumbup:

Yep, that's certainly upped the count.

Ensign Steve · #98 08-20-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

For the record, I thought Celsus meant the prepositional usage of "like" had been turned into a verb meaning "say". I don't know if that's really accurate, though, because it's not the word "like" that's the verb meaning "to say" there, it's the phrase "to be like".

I thought that's what he was talking about at first, too, but I couldn't figure out how "like" is a preposition so I figured he must have meant something else.

I had to look it up, cause I couldn't figure it out either. Apparently, in phrases such as "its like buttah", "like" is a preposition, at least according to Merriam-Webster.

Yes, because the relationship is being compared, hence like in the form of a preposition turning into a strange new verb form (Like totally! and Like real! and then Like omg!)

I definitely see it now that Adam has pointed it out. We always did this test for prepositions in elementary school:

The airplane flew X the cloud.
The bunny jumped X the box.

"The airplane flew like the cloud" and "the bunny jumped like the box" don't make a lot of sense logically, but grammatically they pass the test.

Celsus · #99 08-20-2009, 03:35 PM

Did I up the ante enough? :p

LadyShea · #**100** 08-20-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickthinks

It's puzzling maybe, but why denigrate the judgement behind it like that? Does it seem dumb because you know the reasoning, or because you don't?

Um, it seemed dumb to me because people in the American West interact with Spanish speakers from Mexico very frequently, and Spanish speakers from Spain rarely.

If I lived in Montreal, it would make more sense, at least for practicality, to learn Canadian French than the French they speak in France. Same as if I lived in Louisiana...Cajun French would be more practical than standard French