D&D 4e

Being a nerdwhore, I picked up the books individually at Borders last week.

[Crumb]

I acquired them... eh electronically.

[Zehava]

My books arrived yesterday, and while I haven't sat down and read them completely, the perusing I have done leads me to one conclusion... DON'T WANT!!!

I don't like the entire at will/per encounter/per day mechanic. I don't like the doing away with the vast majority of spells. I don't like how HP are done, healing surges, attack bonus determination, saves, pretty much the whole damn thing.

I'll be sticking with 3.5/pathfinder, thx very much.

[seebs]

I really like the daily/encounter thing. I have had caster-heavy games in the past, and they've tended gradually towards the fifteen-minute adventuring day, after which you have to go let the mages rest so they can unload their best spells on anything they see.

While the number of spells is reduced, a LOT of the ones I thought they'd taken out are now Rituals -- meaning that instead of people only ever taking utility spells on a dare, or after they know those spells are needed, they'll now be moderately common.

HP rock. Hit dice were dumb. Healing surges... I don't entirely like them, but I do like the end of debates over why Cure Light Wounds can bring a dying commoner to full health and barely cure a scratch on a great warrior.

The switch to attacker-always-rolls for attacks and defenses is probably a good choice. It's easier and more consistent.

The switch of saves into "defenses", and the new saving throw mechanic, are part of a general trend towards replacing geometric effects with linear ones, which I approve of.

Here's the thing... Each of these choices *individually* is pretty annoying. The set of them *as a whole* produces a game which, I think, will be the best-balanced D&D ever, in which classes other than wizard and cleric really do have a reason to exist at high levels.

[Zehava]

Originally Posted by seebs

I really like the daily/encounter thing. I have had caster-heavy games in the past, and they've tended gradually towards the fifteen-minute adventuring day, after which you have to go let the mages rest so they can unload their best spells on anything they see.

I see that as a player problem not a rules problem. If your players are blowing their spell load on easy encounters, then they deserve to get their asses handed to them when the real bad guys show up. The old system had spell casters who really had to think of how to expend their spells, do I throw the fireball now or wait until later. Now spell casters are PEW PEW PEW machines, with at will spells like magic missile.

This detracts from the other nuances of wizards. Wizards now are pretty much evocators, gone are the interesting and useful abjuration, conjuration, enchantment and transmutation spells. I can see why they did away with Sorcerers under the new rules. Wizards are now more like sorcerers than traditional wizards. Under 3.5 sorcerers are the nukers, wizards tended to be more utilitarian. Gone now is that utility, replaced by PEW PEW PEW.

Originally Posted by seebs

While the number of spells is reduced, a LOT of the ones I thought they'd taken out are now Rituals -- meaning that instead of people only ever taking utility spells on a dare, or after they know those spells are needed, they'll now be moderately common.

Rituals are actually one of the few things that I do like about the new system.

Originally Posted by seebs

HP rock. Hit dice were dumb.

The only positive thing I see here is it makes thing easier on the DM.

Originally Posted by seebs

Healing surges... I don't entirely like them, but I do like the end of debates over why Cure Light Wounds can bring a dying commoner to full health and barely cure a scratch on a great warrior.

I realize that in 3.5 low level clerics are pretty much heal batteries for the group, you get used to that. Pathfinder, with channeling of positive energy instead of turn undead did a lot to resolve that, and I find that mechanic much better. Giving character anywhere from 5 to 10+, 25% heals per day (1 per encounter normally, with means of increasing that), frees your cleric up to do other things, but IMO really detracts from the main purpose of a cleric. With healing surges you could do a group without a cleric, something unthinkable (IMO) in previous editions.

Originally Posted by seebs

The switch to attacker-always-rolls for attacks and defenses is probably a good choice. It's easier and more consistent.

The switch of saves into "defenses", and the new saving throw mechanic, are part of a general trend towards replacing geometric effects with linear ones, which I approve of.

I can actually live with this change. I'm not sure I entirely like it, but I don't have specific problems with it yet.

Originally Posted by seebs

Here's the thing... Each of these choices *individually* is pretty annoying. The set of them *as a whole* produces a game which, I think, will be the best-balanced D&D ever, in which classes other than wizard and cleric really do have a reason to exist at high levels.

Time will tell. Right not I'm not happy, that may change.

[brikenjon]

Originally Posted by Zehava

The only positive thing I see here is it makes thing easier on the DM.

That's a pretty big positive, though, isn't it? DM is a very intimidating role to take on. Everyone else's fun relies on your ability to keep things running smoothly. Anything that makes that easier is going to make for more enjoyable playing experiences.

Originally Posted by Zehava

With healing surges you could do a group without a cleric, something unthinkable (IMO) in previous editions.

Isn't this also a good thing? If nobody wants to be a cleric, wouldn't it be nice to be able to get by without one?

[Nightson]

Originally Posted by Zehava

I see that as a player problem not a rules problem. If your players are blowing their spell load on easy encounters, then they deserve to get their asses handed to them when the real bad guys show up. The old system had spell casters who really had to think of how to expend their spells, do I throw the fireball now or wait until later. Now spell casters are PEW PEW PEW machines, with at will spells like magic missile.

This detracts from the other nuances of wizards. Wizards now are pretty much evocators, gone are the interesting and useful abjuration, conjuration, enchantment and transmutation spells. I can see why they did away with Sorcerers under the new rules. Wizards are now more like sorcerers than traditional wizards. Under 3.5 sorcerers are the nukers, wizards tended to be more utilitarian. Gone now is that utility, replaced by PEW PEW PEW.

It's because magic was insanely overpowered in 3.5 by a crazy huge margin. It is annoying because I liked those hundreds of pages of spells as well, but they had to do it if they wanted a balanced game.

Originally Posted by Zehava

The only positive thing I see here is it makes thing easier on the DM.

There's no more getting screwed over by rolling 1's and constitution doesn't scale up in usefulness as you gain levels anymore.

Originally Posted by Zehava

With healing surges you could do a group without a cleric, something unthinkable (IMO) in previous editions.

Groups without a cleric/warlord will have a tougher time but are possible, exactly how it should be imo.

[chunksmediocrites]

This is mostly secondhand, but I've gotten two reports: the first is from the co-owner of a local gaming store. They had a big game day testing out the new edition and nobody had any complaints; she said she really tried to get people to give any criticisms and nobody was biting.

The other critique I heard was from a friend in a pen-and-paper group I play 3E with weekly. He's old school D&D and was pretty unimpressed. Felt like the game had gone much more video game, and was mostly repackaged to sell another generation of books to the newbies and non-cynical oldies. The specifics I recall were that he was pretty disgusted with the 'kill minions automatically if you hit them' rule and that high level spells got a lot of the juice removed.

Obviously a bit prejudiced as we play 3E. I think we play that version in part because it runs fine and in part because nobody in my group expects all the members to go out and switch to new editions, considering the cost. I picked up all three 3E core rule books for about 20-25 bucks total, less if I take some time.

My question is: have the newer versions really resolved past issues with the smoothness and versatility of gameplay, or is it just a combination of profit motive / repackaging, and tinkering with something that ain't broke?

On a tangent, any bets whether Hasbro thinks it can make a decent D&D movie to move some product a la Transformers?

[seebs]

I like fixed hit points because playing a character who rolled low for a few levels SUCKED.

I agree that the magic system is less subtle in general -- I think they'll be expanding that, but they started with the straightforward stuff. One of the big goals was to have fewer IWIN buttons, and fewer "save or the whole fight is over" effects. I think they've accomplished that.

[Megatron]

Pseudo-relevant post from another board that totally cracked me up:

Originally Posted by Red Wizard

Pffffffftttttttt, this is nothing. You should see some of the stuff they come up with for D&D; my favorite is the peasant railgun: line up a thousand or so peasants, and buy a stockpile of "ammunition" (usually the rungs from wooden ladders (buying a 10ft ladder and disassembling it into two poles and some rungs is cheaper than buying two 10ft poles, if you go by the rules as written)). For your first round of "combat", you have each peasant down the line ready an action (free action for the next round) to pass the stick down the line to the next peasant, the last peasant readies an action to throw the stick at your target. On the next combat round, the peasants all pass the stick down the line, eventually moving it across thousands of 5ft intervals within a few seconds - speeding it up to something like mach 10. Once it reaches the final destination, it destroys 6d6+2 catgirls.

[Megatron]

Also,

Lots of money with a Wiz11 or higher with max ranks in Craft (Weaponsmithing) and the spells Fabricate and Wall of Iron.

Step 1: Cast Wall of Iron, creating a wall 55ft*5ft*2in=45.83cu ft of iron. This step costs 50gp in material components.

Step 2: Cast Fabricate, converting 11 cu ft per cast into masterwork daggers. With 14 ranks in Craft (Weaponsmithing) and a wizard's crazy Int, you can't fail. Repeat until only 1-2 cu ft of iron remains. (4 casts). This consumes your 5th-level slots for the day, and takes 4 and a half minutes.
The density of iron is 491lbs/cu ft. Thus 44 cu ft of iron weighs 21604 lbs. A dagger weighs 1 lb. Thus we create 21604 masterwork daggers, which sell for 151 gp each. That's 3,262,204 gp. Over 3 million gp. At level 11.

Step 3: Profit!

Teleportation will solve the economic problems; by selling to the entire world instead of just the local pawnshop, you can easily find a market. And then spend your money to set up lots of local branch offices, with people capable of casting Sending or whatever to keep you informed of how business is going and what local demands are. Use this to track warfare and sell your weapons wherever they are needed. You probably won't be able to sell the maximum output of a level 20 wizard, but you'll make a very, very good profit, not to mention a lot of friends in high places if you sell at a bit below normal price.

20th level wizard, without using any slots above 6th level.

Volume of Iron = 5*5*20*(5/12)=208.33cu ft.
Castings of Fabricate = 10 (use 6th level slots to fill as required)
Fabricate time = 20 minutes per day
Mass of Iron Fabricated = 200*491=98200 lbs.
Number of Mwk Daggers = 98200
Payout = 98200*151=14,828,200 gp
Profit = 14,827,700 gp. Per day.

[Megatron]

We're gonna have to see if 4e has any new bizarro mechanics we can use for mass catgirl destruction... haha.

[seebs]

That FUCKER stole my idea.

I am pretty sure that I was the first person to describe the "commoner railgun" using that term. My posts on it date back to January 31, 2002. I don't think anyone did it earlier.

Oh, wait. I can find one in June 2001. Also me.

[Megatron]

Well, I'm fairly sure he "found it on the internets" somewhere...

You're the one who came up with that?

[Adam]

That's hilarious, seebs. I've seen the peasant railgun before, but I had no idea it was your idea.

[Megatron]

From another board:

Originally Posted by Swordguy

Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.

A reply he got:

Originally Posted by J_Muller

I feel a great disturbance in the Force. As if millions of catgirls suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

[Zehava]

let me lay out some of my specific problems with 4e, starting with Clerics.

Clerics have long been my favorite class in D&D, so the treatment they have received in 4e strikes a sensitive nerve.

Deities/Domains.

Now the choice of which deity to follow is purely for show. The only things that separate followers of Pelor from those of Bane is that Pelor followers are good and Bane followers are evil, oh and completely undefined tenets of faith that you are supposed to follow. Previous editions of D&D provided different benefits and restrictions for following a particular deity. Domain powers and domain spells helped add substance and purpose to clerics, rather than being heal bots.

Though Clerics could wear heavy armor and wade into combat, it was also equally viable to have a Cleric that fights from the rear, providing heals, buffs and the occasional offensive spell. Come 4e a Cleric is forced more to the front lines (hell you can have the same attack bonus as a fighter), but the armor allowed has been reduced to chain mail.

The support Cleric has been severely reduced in effectiveness, especially at low levels. Standard 3e spells such as sanctuary, cure light wounds, bless and shield of faith, have been made 2nd level utility prayers usable ONCE per day. ONCE per day! Cure light wounds is made even further useless by the number of healing surges given to all classes.

I understand they want to give Clerics options other then healing, but IMO Clerics definitely had that in 3e already, and had it better. 4e Clerics are under-armored melee fighters or sub-par PEW PEW with no where near the utility and uniqueness of previous versions.

I'll have more later.

Shut up and heal me!

[Zehava]

Originally Posted by Uthgar the Brazen

Shut up and heal me!

Use a healing surge already.

[Megatron]

WTF, they ruined my favorite class... fuck, man.

Being a completist nerd, I don't regret having picked up the volumes.

However, as I read more, I become increasingly disappointed. While 3/3.5 had a bit of an overkill factor (look! MORE prestige classes!), right now I'm pretty certain that my 4.0 library won't grow to nearly the size of that edition. As in, not any more at all unless some bright spots begin to show up.

"Lessee, a leader is a roleplayer. Everything else is fighting and ph4t l3wtz, bitches!"

Might as well re-up in WoW.

[Adam]

I really want to find a group so I can test some of the new concepts myself. I'm sort of on the same page as Zehava wrt Clerics. I know part of their intent was to eliminate the heal-bot/support Cleric, but I personally like playing support characters. For that matter, Clerics in 3.5e were more or less Godzilla with healing abilities, so maybe they just went too far in toning them down.

I'm of two minds about healing surges. I love them from a game design perspective. As a storyteller trying to describe what just happened in play, I'm trying to figure out how they mean anything but "Uh...you pause and rest for a moment, and suddenly your wounds begin to close up. Perhaps a wizard did it."

[fragment]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm of two minds about healing surges. I love them from a game design perspective. As a storyteller trying to describe what just happened in play, I'm trying to figure out how they mean anything but "Uh...you pause and rest for a moment, and suddenly your wounds begin to close up. Perhaps a wizard did it."

Hit points are already a whack system as far as trying to describe what just happened. Unless you're losing a regular amount they're not the sort of wound where you severed an artery and need stitches, and they don't represent OMG you can't walk because your leg is broken, either. That's going to leave non-maiming stuff like cracked ribs, knocks to the head, and cuts that will stop bleeding after a bit. The sort of stuff that stopping for a rest will be good for.

[Adam]

Yah, but using your Second Wind ability and consuming a healing surge is a standard action, which means it occupies some fraction of a six second combat round. Minor cuts and knocks to the head don't heal in six seconds.

Yes, I know that hp are a gamist abstraction in the first place, and I know that I really need to sing the MST3K theme to myself here, but it's just that the concept of surges drags the system strongly in one direction on the gamist-simulationist-narrativist triangle.

ETA: To clarify, I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, which is why I'm of two, minds about it. I'm just saying that it represents a deliberate decision to make D&D more explicitly gamist, at the expense of the other two factors and, thus, is part of the whole "OMG D&D is WoW now!" backlash with which, as previously stated, I mostly disagree.