The "no" campaign is, aptly, almost entirely negative: an independent Scotland will have all these problems (and can't use the pound Ye tak' th' poond an' we'll tak' th' oil. - Freethought Forum, can't join the euro zone, can't even remain part of the EU).
However ... I think the "yes" campaign have missed a trick by not being more negative. It's all Scotland the Brave forging its own destiny. In fact, the real driver for most people who will vote yes is likely to be distrust merging into hatred of the Westminster government. What have they ever done for us? (Insert your own Monty Python paraphrase here.)
Because it's largely true that successive UK governments, at least since Thatcher, and definitely including Blair, have pursued centralisation of power to the detriment of many regions of the UK outside the South East (and arguably even to the detriment of London since no one can actually afford to live here now). The devolved assemblies and such that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have are not really enough. (But the possible impact on feeling in Northern Ireland is definitely one of the factors behind the Conservative and Unionist Party's desperation to keep the UK as it is.)
So I say: Scotland will have quite a few major problems if it goes independent, but it should take them on, it should try it, because Scotland like much of the UK, if not much of the world, already has huge problems from power-mad barely-representative governments.
It sometimes seems ironic that Westminster politicians can be simultaneously convinced of the need to centralise power in Westminster and the need to prevent any powers at all from being centralised in the various bodies of the EU.
While I am mostly politically apathetic - or rather politically nihilistic - I do have a gut resistance to complete centralisation of power, except for checks and balances, where the EU has got some good outcomes. So unlike probably 51% of the electorate and 101% of Daily Mail readers, I think Scotland should be independent, as should Wales and Cornwall and to possibly lesser extents Northumbria and Yorkshire and Rutland, but all of these countries and provinces should be in the EU.
Oh they probably can. It's politicians who are saying they may not be able to, it is not a foregone conclusion, etc - and who trusts what politicians say?
I doubt there would be any limitation on free movement of labour. The issue is around budget and currency and central banks and debt. The big shots of the EU don't want another Greece/Ireland/Portugal/Spain getting into trouble and needing bailing out. And they don't want other potential applicants to say "but you let Scotland in without any of these controls you're demanding from us".
That is not quite the issue as I heard it. The issue is whether the new nation would inherit the old region's UK-derived membership of the EU on Day1, and thus never leave.
It seems to be up to the EU whether that is the way gaining independence from one of its member states would work, and there are good reasons to believe that other member states with separatist regions of their own would resist establishing that precedent. For example, Spain would be expected to veto Scotland's automatic membership in order to discourage its Catalan separatists.
There's a lengthy process of jumping though hoops for a state to be allowed to join, and while few have suggested that Scotland couldn't jump through all the hoops, the Yes Campaign want its followers to believe that, as a former part of the UK, they won't have to.
Yes, that too. The issue I touched on is what they'll have to face if the issue you've described constitutes a blocker. Either way, these kinds of issues don't hinge on what's best for Scotland but what other governments will accept.
Meanwhile, those of you in touch with Farren on the faces book will have the chance to see that he has posted some interesting stuff about this very subject at eye-straining length.
True, but when you said "these kinds of issues don't hinge on what's best for Scotland but what other governments will accept" you appear to be relying on a distinction between what would be best if other countries had to accept whatever Scotland wanted, and what is best given the way things are.
I'd be very surprised if Scotland votes for independence.
Scotland is massively more left-leaning than the rest of the country. This political dissent is primarily the result of a Conservative government it never wanted, running the show with London-centric policies. I don't think it will be enough, come voting day, to sway people to make a fairly large change in how things are run.
__________________ The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. -Eugene Wigner
Canny Scots know that telling opinion pollsters that they plan to vote for independence is the best way to extract the maximum concessions from London.
As I said in the other thread, I don't believe that even the Scottish National Party really wants independence - what they want is a narrow 'No' vote followed by bigger subsidies from England, and more powers for themselves than they already enjoy.
Actually the leaders of all three parties are going to Scotland, to do some emergency campaigning.. I'm not sure whether to yell 'panic stations!' or 'lads on tour!'.
It's sort of funny watching the south of the country wake up to the fact that, yes, they're serious about this.
I've got a lot of Scottish friends, or just friends in Scotland. One thing that is different to many elections is how excited people are. There's a real sense that this matters, which is different to many elections.
__________________ The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. -Eugene Wigner
Here's Paul Krugman in The New York Times on the other big issue in the independence debate, the currency. The separatists intend to keep the British Pound.
Canny Scots know that telling opinion pollsters that they plan to vote for independence is the best way to extract the maximum concessions from London.
As I said in the other thread, I don't believe that even the Scottish National Party really wants independence - what they want is a narrow 'No' vote followed by bigger subsidies from England, and more powers for themselves than they already enjoy.
And this is one of the reasons why I'd quite like a "yes" vote - with a margin of at least 2 or 3 %. Right, you wanted this, now make it work! I'll come as a tourist.
Actually the leaders of all three parties are going to Scotland, to do some emergency campaigning.. I'm not sure whether to yell 'panic stations!' or 'lads on tour!'.
I'd be very surprised if Scotland votes for independence.
It depends on how many of them are streaming Outlander. Heck, even I feel all Jacobite right now, and I have never even been there.
* JoeP makes note for future: take Miisa to Scotland
I'm interested in the idea, floated by some, of Scotland seeing itself as a Nordic country. The idea of an enlightened, socialist region from the Outer Hebrides to Karjala is quite cool.
Failing that, I'm keen on Shetland and Orkney saying they aren't really part of Scotland but want to form a union with their Viking ancestors in Norway. (I have ancestors in Shetland.)
I'm interested in the idea, floated by some, of Scotland seeing itself as a Nordic country.
The currency issue seems pretty big to me though. I'm sure there would be a lot of kinks to work out, but why couldn't they have their own currency? Sweden, Denmark and Norway each have their own currencies...
In any case, if I were English I'd be worried about Scotland leaving not just for all the other reasons, but because it would mean the Tories could afford to move rightward.
In any case, if I were English I'd be worried about Scotland leaving not just for all the other reasons, but because it would mean the Tories could afford to move rightward.
I'm pretty sure a lot of English are worried that they would be stuck with Tories forever if Scotland left. Someone in my stream today posted, "Imagine ticking a box and saying goodbye to the Tories f o r e v e r!!!" Which, to me, is a pretty hard argument to refute. I worry for Labour supporters in England, I really do.
__________________
"freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
- Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Ed. v. Barnette
Scottish Independence
one of the reasons why I'd quite like a "yes" vote - with a margin of at least 2 or 3 %. Right, you wanted this, now make it work! I'll come as a tourist.
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