Help me understand the Israel/Palestine conflict

[LadyShea]

Okay, I have never taken much interest because it just seemed too damned complicated and quite frankly a lot of bullshit. I recently tried to find some basic background information, and it seems like the whole history is nothing but a clusterfuck.

From what I understand, neither Palestine nor Israel existed prior to WWI. The area was part of the Turkish Empire and was made up mostly of some kind of generic "Arabs", some Turks, and a handful of Jews.

For some reason (that I would like explained) the US helped or promised help in gaining independence for the region during WWI, and from that Palestine was formed. After WWII, the Allies decided to help create Israel for the displaced European Jews.

That's about all I know. Now, what the hell is the Gaza strip? Why is it a problem? Since Palestine was also a "created" country, why did they get so pissed at Israel being created? What is at the heart of the conflict...or is it all the "land rights" stuff just an excuse for a religious war between the Jews and Muslims?

[SharonDee]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Now, what the hell is the Gaza strip? Why is it a problem?

You got me. This opinion piece at the New York Times tried to explain it but my concentration problems don't let me "get it."

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by SharonDee

You got me. This opinion piece at the New York Times tried to explain it but my concentration problems don't let me "get it."

Thanks Sharon. According to that article, the Gaza strip was never meant to be a part of Israel, they simply took it during war in the late 60's.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Since Palestine was also a "created" country, why did they get so pissed at Israel being created?

Because the Palestinians were already living there, while almost all of the Jews who formed Israel immigrated there from Europe and the US. The Zionism movement began, I think, towards the beginning of the 20th Century, but after WWII it really took off, because it was clear that Jews were not safe in countries where they were the minority. Stalin had basically reinstituted the pograms of imperial Russia (but on an even larger scale), and we all know what happened in Germany.

And I don't think Palestine was really a nation-state at that time; it was governed by (I think) the UK under a League of Nations mandate. The Arab world was still mostly dominated by colonial powers at that time; the UK and France helped them break free from the Ottoman Empire during WWI, but then tried to install their own puppet governments. The Brits, by proxy, ruled Iraq and what is now Saudi Arabia in addition to Palestine. So I'm sure there was a lot of resentment among Arabs when Palestine, where Arabs were living, was "given" to Jews immigrating from Europe. Ethnic and religous bigotry helped turn this resentment into hatred.

By the time Israel declared itself a nation-state, neighboring Arab countries were independent enough to declare war on it. That was the 1948 war. The Arabs lost and the borders of Israel were pretty much established. There was another war in 1967, when Syria, Jordan, and Egypt attacked Israel, and that's where Israel captured the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, Gaza Strip from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Israel claimed it needed to hold onto them as a strategic buffer zone. But right from the start there were some Israelis who just wanted to annex them outright. That's where the settlement movement came from.

Also in the 1967 war, many Arabs within Israel fled, either to avoid being killed by the Arab countries they were rooting for or in fear of Israeli reprisals. Many ended up in refugee camps in neighboring countries and in the West Bank. That's where the "right of return" concept comes from; some Palestinians think those refugees and their descendants should have to right to return to Israel proper and reclaim their property. Other Arabs (and people like me) think they should be able to return to the West Bank or Gaza and be compensated by Israel for property they lost (as Jews whose property was confiscated by the Nazis were compensated by Germany and Austria).

No country but Israel recognizes their claim to any of the occupied territories. Some Israelis want to give it all back, some want to keep it as a military buffer zone but not let Israelis settle there, some want to annex part of it, and some want to annex all of it.

[Godless Dave]

Now here's what I think should happen:

I think Israel should keep part of the West Bank, where there are existing Jewish settlements and little Palestinian population, and the rest should be given to the Palestinians as one continiguous piece of territory to form a completely independent state with no Israeli presence whatsoever. Spoils of war and all that.

Most of the Palestinians (the ones who don't want Israel utterly destroyed) seem to want the Gaza strip to be part of a Palestinian state. I'm not sure a territorially divided Palestine would work. Maybe it would be better off as part of Egypt; Israel has had a peace treaty with Egypt for almost 30 years so that shouldn't be the strategic problem some Israelis think it would.

I also think East Jerusalem should be part of Palestine, and Israel can keep the rest of Jerusalem. I don't care what king ruled there when or what pile of rocks Solomon's temple was built on.

[LadyShea]

Thanks Dave, I feel I understand the situation better. For one thing, I see no reason to unquestionably support Israel (why does the US do so?), as it seems they're not even remotely blameless in the conflict.

[viscousmemories]

I find the whole issue really confusing myself, but these threads have a lot of good info:

Anti-semetism and criticism of Israel

Israel, Palestine and Dispossession

Constructive solutions to the Israel/Palestine problem

[LadyShea]

Thanks vm, reading now. I should have paid attention sooner, but just felt it was best to stay away from the whole thing. Now with this shit in Gaza...I feel I should get somewhat basically informed.

[HighOnHotSauce]

Very informative thread, thanks to all who contributed. I’m still reading the “linked to” threads.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

For one thing, I see no reason to unquestionably support Israel (why does the US do so?)

Some people only think in black and white. They don't know how to do any other kind of support than unquestioning support. And then there's racism against Arabs. And then there are the wingnuts who think all the land from the Meditteranean to the banks of the Jordan belongs to the Jewish people because the Bible says so. A restored Israel and rebuilt temple is supposed to be one of the harbringers of the Second Coming.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

And then there's racism against Arabs. And then there are the wingnuts who think all the land from the Meditteranean to the banks of the Jordan belongs to the Jewish people because the Bible says so. A restored Israel and rebuilt temple is supposed to be one of the harbringers of the Second Coming.

[neracegirl]

What a lot of people are forgetting though is that instead of trying peaceful solutions to the problem between Jews and MuslimsArabs in this area the Arab Muslims just use violence and want it all with all Jews dead.
I have spent time in Quwait and went to Isreal and nothing is worse then always wondering if someone who isnt wearing a Yarmulka is instead wearing a bomb and walking into a mall or daycare to blow everyone up. These people have a hatred for anyone not Muslim and its scary. They would never agree to split the land and since time began they have rebuilt over each others holy sites. I say just make it all a DMZ somehow.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by neracegirl

What a lot of people are forgetting though is that instead of trying peaceful solutions to the problem between Jews and MuslimsArabs in this area the Arab Muslims just use violence and want it all with all Jews dead.
I have spent time in Quwait and went to Isreal and nothing is worse then always wondering if someone who isnt wearing a Yarmulka is instead wearing a bomb and walking into a mall or daycare to blow everyone up. These people have a hatred for anyone not Muslim and its scary. They would never agree to split the land and since time began they have rebuilt over each others holy sites. I say just make it all a DMZ somehow.

So in your opinion Israel is completely innocent and blameless in the whole issue? It's all the fault of the violent Arab Muslims?

I find that impossible to believe.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by neracegirl

What a lot of people are forgetting though is that instead of trying peaceful solutions to the problem between Jews and MuslimsArabs in this area the Arab Muslims just use violence and want it all with all Jews dead.

Ah. Someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about.

I have spent time in Quwait and went to Isreal and nothing is worse then always wondering if someone who isnt wearing a Yarmulka is instead wearing a bomb and walking into a mall or daycare to blow everyone up.

Or you could be Arab and wondering which right-wing Jew wearing the yarmulka is going to shoot you, steal your land, or try to invade your house and claim it.

These people have a hatred for anyone not Muslim and its scary.

Persecution has a way of doing that to a person.

They would never agree to split the land and since time began they have rebuilt over each others holy sites. I say just make it all a DMZ somehow.

The problem right now is that the Israelis don't agree to split the land, so apparently your time in Kuwait and Israel was wasted.

Do yourself a favor - read the threads that were already referenced here.

[Ari]

Maybe I'm stupid, but didn't the Gaza strip contain under 10,000 jews and millions of arab muslims? If so, and if the arab muslims want all jews dead, shouldn't the jews all be dead, or did they have some sort of ray gun to stop a million man mob?

[Godless Dave]

I would hazard a guess that there are more Arabs who want all Israelis dead than Israelis who want all Arabs, or even all Palestinians, dead. But there are still plenty of the latter.

Also, those Arabs who do want a peaceful solution do not really have a voice. Israel has categorically ignored them.

As I said on II, moral equivalence. Human beings are, in general, selfish bigoted scumbags and we see that on all sides of this conflict.

[freemonkey]

Thanks for this thread and the links, I've learned some things today.

Will anyone comment on the reasons its so important for the US to be involved?

[Farren]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Thanks for this thread and the links, I've learned some things today.

Will anyone comment on the reasons its so important for the US to be involved?

Unfortunately the US has a strategic interest in providing material support to the Israeli's, which casts serious doubt on their motives. They have consistently blocked UN security council resolutions condemning Israel, but the UN General Assembly has passed hundreds of resolutions condmening Israels actions. Those resolutions represent the opinion of the majority of the world's governments, which are neither Jewish nor Muslim controlled. It should be mentioned that the General Assembly has also condemned Palestinian actions a lot of times.

The US and to a lesser extent the UK have been so obstinate and unwavering in blocking any and all criticism against Israel, wherever they have the means to do so, that their position on Israel cannot be seen to be balanced or honest. It can easily be characterised in the same manner as Reagan's cooperation with South Africa in Angola and labelling of Nelson Mandela as a "terrorist".

The most oft-stated aim of the US, which basically funds the Israeli army, is to preserve a stable democracy in the middle east that is friendly towards the US. While this is a defensible goal, it is comparible to supporting Nazi Germany's invasion of foreign land because Hitler was elected. Obviously its not the same in degree, but definitely in terms of the conceptual framework.

Its sometimes hard to be sympathetic towards the Palestinians because there are a sizeable number of them who are sexist and fundamentalist and would, given the chance, create an oppressive state. But the truth is millions of them today live under the Israeli boot without any chance of an effective democratic government. Effective Palestinian government is a joke because you cannot effectively run a country that's broken up into bantustan-like fragments, with limited access to water sources and seperated by road blocks and walls built by a hostile power that reserves the right to enroach on your sovereign territory whenever they feel like it.

[godfry n. glad]

It seems to me that the whole Gaza/West Bank thing has that aura of American policy towards the indigenous peoples of North America. Gaza sure seems analogous to "The Rez."

I'm curious as to why Gaza has not been returned to Egypt. Anybody know?

[Skep]

Under the 1978 Camp David Accords the Sinai peninsula was returned to Egypt and a plan to make Gaza an autonomous region was to have been put in place. The details of that plan are apparently still in the works.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Will anyone comment on the reasons its so important for the US to be involved?

One (but not the only) factor is the large Jewish American population and the way many of them vote. Not all Jewish Americans vote the same way or have the same opinions, of course, but the ones who do are politically powerful enough to influence policy, just as the large Cuban-American population influences policy towards Cuba.

People don't like to say this because it sounds too close to saying there is some kind of Zionist conspiracy operating in the United States. It's not a conspiracy, it's a constituency.

[Crumb]

According to Wikipedia the US is only 1.4% Jewish. Call me skeptical but I am not convinced that even if they all voted the same all the time that they could have such a profound effect on US foreign policy. My guess is that the pro-Israel involvement of the US has much more to do with a large number of Christians who may see the continued existence of Israel as fullfilling biblical prophecy. They have much larger numbers.

Isn't that more likely?

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by Crumb

According to Wikipedia the US is only 1.4% Jewish. Call me skeptical but I am not convinced that even if they all voted the same all the time that they could have such a profound effect on US foreign policy. My guess is that the pro-Israel involvement of the US has much more to do with a large number of Christians who may see the continued existence of Israel as fullfilling biblical prophecy. They have much larger numbers.

Isn't that more likely?

Watch the numbers, though.

The number of Fortune 500 corporate CEOs is considerably less than 1% of the population. I suspect that as a group, they have an effect on US foreign policy far in excess of their proportional representation.

And there are more ways to influence the US foreign policy than showing up for elections, especially given our current political system of electoral voting.

Edited to add:
Here's an example where a Jewish minority has influenced US foreign policy:

http://www.middleeastbooks.com/html/...neff-jeru.html

Warriors for Jerusalem: The Six Days that Changed the Middle East in 1967

Donald Neff

Amana Publications, Paperback, 1988, 430 pgs.

An account of the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, covering events preceding the conflict and the aftermath of Israel's victory.

A disturbing aspect is the revelation of how closely Israel and its supporters in the United States worked with the highest levels of the U.S. government as U.S. reactions and policies were being decided. Every Israeli request for political or material support was granted except for the aforementioned formal military commitment. A network of prominent American Jews both in and out of government was advising President Johnson at every stage, and was at the same time apparently keeping the Israeli embassy and the Israeli government fully informed of every move contemplated by the United States. The network included the Rostow brothers in the White House and State Department, Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas, Ambassador to the U.N. Arthur Goldberg, Finance Chairman of the Democratic Party Arthur Krim and his wife Mathilde, and Abraham Feinberg, a fundraiser for the Democratic Party. This one-sided barrage of advice made a mockery of any pretense of evenhandedness, as was amply demonstrated when State Department spokesman Bob McCloskey said on the morning of June 5 that "the U.S. position is neutral in word, thought and deed"-a statement which brought howls of outrage from Israel's supporters all across America. This was embarrassing for President Johnson, who was desparately seeking Jewish support to shore up his popularity- rapidly waning as a result of Vietnam.

Secret Assurances

Another revelation is that King Hussein was given secret assurances by President Johnson and Ambassador Goldberg that the U.S. was committed to Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories within six months of the passage of 242. Seventeen years later with Israel still in place it is no wonder Hussein's patience has finally snapped in recent days.

So this is no accident. The text of 242 was deliberately changed, to let the Arabs interpret it as a full withdrawal, and let the Israelis verbally position it as such, but to allow wiggle room in the written version so that Israel could hide behind a single three-letter word.

To think otherwise (i.e, to claim that the Arabs understood that 242 only called for a *partial* withdrawal) is to believe that the Arabs knew that 242 wasn't going to give them what they wanted, yet they signed onto it anyhow - which is preposterous. The Arabs would have *never* signed on to 242 if it did not include a full and complete withdrawal, especially over East Jerusalem.

This is why for years afterwards, Anwar al-Sadat always spoke bitterly about Resolution 242, saying that Israel had violated the 'spirit of the agreement'; i.e., that everyone who agreed to 242 knew what it meant and had agreed on its meaning. But then the Arabs had been sold a bait-and-switch, courtesy of some weasly changes in the text. And he was right. And as you might expect, this episode over 242 is used by the Arabs as an example of why Israel cannot be trusted in negotiations.