A revolution in thought

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I really hope you teach your child to respect all people, even if their ideas are different. That is the best gift a parent can give to a child.

Wrong! A pony is the best gift a parent, or anyone else, can give a child. This is not open to debate.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

Wrong! A pony is the best gift a parent, or anyone else, can give a child. This is not open to debate.

I was given a pony as a child, so WORD!

[Angakuk]

I never got a pony so I had to buy my own when I grew up.

[LadyShea]

peacegirl was typing a reply (eat your heart out NSA we have the tools to spy here at , unless people turn it off ) but seems to have abandoned it. Wonder why?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I realize that, but what I have learned through my personal experience is that criticizers are often way too premature in their judgment. I notice that they do exactly what they have done to me (and I'm not saying the Zeitgeist movement could ever become a reality); cherry pick what they want to use so as to make the book appear what it's not.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Zeitgeist has been around since about 2006. Just because it is new to you doesn't mean it is new to anyone else here. You don't hang around the rest of so you have no idea what discussions go on, nor do you know and understand the people here and how informed they tend to be.

If they're that informed, then why are their responses to my question about Zeitgeist so uninformed?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

IOW there is no premature judgements. There are judgements you don't like, is all.

False. You base your judgments on your limited knowledge, which is premature in many cases.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

It is mean, vindictive, and the motive is to make people feel bad. I don't see woos doing this. It seems to me that this group enjoys what they're doing because it separates them from others and gives them a false sense of superiority.

And that's exactly what gives this forum a bad name. Look, do what you want. I'm only saying that there's something that stinks in the way this group puts others down. They use ad hominem attacks all the time, and come off like angels. It's sick. They purposely use tactics that serve to intimidate because they can't argue any other way.

You can say the same thing in as little words as possible (e.g.. "I don't agree").

You're all washed up LadyShea. Stop trying to justify poor behavior.

Because I've been called names that are derogatory, and it is hurtful. I'm a human and they're human, and I empathize with them because I believe it is hurtful to them too.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

LOL what does that have to do with the point you made or my question about it?

What question about it? All I hear are negative insults.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Once again, I'm not saying to agree with their ideas if you don't, but the way people in here cause an intentional riff between the ignorant woos and the "smart" scientists is horrible because it invites disrespect.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Again, this is by design. I do not respect purposefully ignorant people so will not pretend to respect them or treat their ideas respectfully.

I hope you will adjust your attitude toward people who happen to think differently than you (whether it's wrong in your eyes or not) because it is a terrible thing to pass onto your child. I know you will find a way to justify what you're doing because you get a certain satisfaction putting others down. This goes far beyond teaching critical thinking skills.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I really hope you teach your child to respect all people, even if their ideas are different. That is the best gift a parent can give to a child.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Uh, no. I will not teach my child to respect all people, because there are too many that are unworthy of it. Seriously, peacegirl, a not insignificant portion of people are not at all sincere in their stated beliefs and intents...they are snake oil salesmen, using the True Believers or Avid Fans to their own purposes, such as monetary gain or power via fame.

Now we've hit a nerve. You can still respect people for their innocence even if they are misguided. To love all people is a value worth pursuing rather than finding ways to teach your child to dislike people and to be suspicious of everyone he will meet. You are doing your child an injustice that will not serve him well in the future. You can respect people even if you disagree with their beliefs. I know you will argue with me on this; just think about it in your quiet moments and maybe you'll come around.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

For one example (against "my side" rather than the woos) there is a serious issue with rape culture and misogyny right now in the organized atheist and skeptical movements. Big, big names on the book and speaking circuits, as well as in positions of authority in organizations, have been accused of sexual assault and sexual harassment in the course of their work or at expos and gatherings. Women have reported sexual harassment and sexual assault at every convention for years. Those who speak out against the sexism in blogs and videos get another round of it via comments and emails...nasty stuff like rape and death threats and posting of personal information as well as more subtle victim blaming and gaslighting. I do not respect these pieces of shit, why on Earth would I or should I?

I don't like that either, but who is telling you to condone this? I am not even telling you to like these people. We fight against these injustices every chance we can get, but there's a deeper issue here. I would speak out against these misguided people too, but you're putting everyone in the same basket. You cannot put the Zeitgeist movement in the same category as Scientology, for example. Anyone who is hurt by another's actions needs to be protected.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

The best gift I can give my son is critical thinking skills and the ability to discern when his trust and respect is warranted and when he should be wary and withhold it.

I taught my children to be critical thinkers, but they don't go around making it their entire life being suspicious of everyone's thoughts. As I said, unless someone is purposely hurting another for their own gain, disrespecting them for their opinions on a given subject is not a way to teach a child that all people are deserving of equal respect. Your boy is going to learn to be intolerant.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

this group is too quick to make judgments.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Years is not "too quick"

This thread is a joke LadyShea, and the fact that you think that years of discussion here has given you a true indication of the value of this book, is very telling indeed.

[LadyShea]

Oh peacegirl, you do amuse me. What a sanctimonious bitch you can be when you feel embarrassed.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

The "compassion" of anti-vax crackpots

Respect? Fuck that.

You do not know how some children will react to a particular vaccine LadyShea. You can choose what you want for your own child, but you cannot tell other parents what to do with their children. If you knew everything about the short and long term effects of these vaccines on every child's immune system, you'd win the Nobel prize. Please stop playing God.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Oh peacegirl, you do amuse me. What a sanctimonious bitch you can be when you feel embarrassed.

Embarrassed about what? You can't take the heat, can you? I'm sorry that I disagree with your ideas on a lot of things, but that doesn't make me wrong and you right. If you don't like what I have to say, the door's open.

[peacegirl]

[quote=LadyShea;1151106]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I realize that, but what I have learned through my personal experience is that criticizers are often way too premature in their judgment. I notice that they do exactly what they have done to me (and I'm not saying the Zeitgeist movement could ever become a reality); cherry pick what they want to use so as to make the book appear what it's not.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Zeitgeist has been around since about 2006. Just because it is new to you doesn't mean it is new to anyone else here. You don't hang around the rest of so you have no idea what discussions go on, nor do you know and understand the people here and how informed they tend to be.

If they're that informed, then why are their responses to my question about Zeitgeist so uninformed?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

IOW there is no premature judgements. There are judgements you don't like, is all.

False. You base your judgments on your limited knowledge, which is premature in many cases.

[quote=peacegirl]

You keep throwing around the term "crackpot" as if you can easily dismiss a well-meaning group of people with this one word.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Because I can dismiss them

No one is saying you can't, but the term "crackpot" is derogatory.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Yes, it is. It is meant to be. It is used on purpose.

It is mean, vindictive, and the motive is to make people feel bad. I don't see woos doing this to you. It seems to me that this group enjoys doing this because it separates them from others and gives them a false sense of superiority.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

It has a negative connotation.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

LOL, no shit!

And that's exactly what gives this forum a bad name. Look, do what you want. I'm only saying that there's something that stinks in the way this group talks. They use ad hominem attacks all the time, and come off like their angels. It's sick. They purposely use tactics that serve to intimidate because they can't argue any other way.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

People use it for effect.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I can't speak for others, but I use it because it is concise.

You can say the same thing in as little words as possible (e.g.. "I don't agree").

Originally Posted by peacegirl

They wouldn't say "Well, I don't think they're on the right track," because that doesn't have enough zing to it. I am not saying that their answers are right, and obviously you can dismiss them, but that doesn't warrant the use of such a term in my opinion.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I use respectful phrases like "I don't think they are on the right track" when I disagree with an idea or approach, but the idea itself is not crackpottery. I assume others are similar in their word choices.

You're all washed up LadyShea. Stop trying to justify bad behavior.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Because I've been called names that are derogatory, and it is hurtful. I'm a human and they're human, and I empathize with them because I believe it is hurtful to them too.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

LOL what does that have to do with the point you made or my question about it?

What question about it? All I hear are negative insults.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Once again, I'm not saying to agree with their ideas if you don't, but the way people in here cause an intentional riff between the ignorant woos and the "smart" scientists is horrible because it invites disrespect.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Again, this is by design. I do not respect purposefully ignorant people so will not pretend to respect them or treat their ideas respectfully.

You really need to rethink your worldview because your attitude toward people who happen to think differently than you (whether it's wrong in your eyes or not) is a terrible thing to pass onto your child. I know you will find a way to justify what you're doing. This disrespectful attitude toward others goes far beyond teaching critical thinking skills.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I really hope you teach your child to respect all people, even if their ideas are different. That is the best gift a parent can give to a child.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Uh, no. I will not teach my child to respect all people, because there are too many that are unworthy of it. Seriously, peacegirl, a not insignificant portion of people are not at all sincere in their stated beliefs and intents...they are snake oil salesmen, using the True Believers or Avid Fans to their own purposes, such as monetary gain or power via fame.

Now we've hit a nerve. You can still respect people for their innocence even if they are misguided. To love all people is a value worth pursuing rather than finding ways to teach your child to dislike people and to be suspicious of everyone he will meet. You are doing your child an injustice that will not serve him well in the future. You can like all people and disagree with their worldview, but that's not the same thing as disrespecting people who have a different way of thinking about things.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

For one example (against "my side" rather than the woos) there is a serious issue with rape culture and misogyny right now in the organized atheist and skeptical movements. Big, big names on the book and speaking circuits, as well as in positions of authority in organizations, have been accused of sexual assault and sexual harassment in the course of their work or at expos and gatherings. Women have reported sexual harassment and sexual assault at every convention for years. Those who speak out against the sexism in blogs and videos get another round of it via comments and emails...nasty stuff like rape and death threats and posting of personal information as well as more subtle victim blaming and gaslighting. I do not respect these pieces of shit, why on Earth would I or should I?

I don't like that either, but who is telling you to condone this? I am not even telling you to like these people. We fight against these injustices every chance we can get, but there's a deeper issue here. I would speak out against these misguided people too, but you're putting everyone in the same basket. You cannot put the Zeitgeist movement in the same category as Scientology, as an example. Anyone who is hurt by another's actions needs to be protected, this isn't even my argument.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

The best gift I can give my son is critical thinking skills and the ability to discern when his trust and respect is warranted and when he should be wary and withhold it.

I taught my children to be critical thinkers, but they don't go around making it their entire life being suspicious of everyone's thoughts on a given subject. As I said, unless someone is purposely hurting another for their own gain, disrespecting them for their opinions on a given subject is not a way to teach that all people should be respected. This just shows me you don't understand a thing about man's will, for if you did, you would have more compassion.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

this group is too quick to make judgments.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Years is not "too quick"

This thread is a joke LadyShea, and the fact that you think that years of discussion here has given you a true indication of the value of this book, is very telling indeed.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You do not know how some children will react to a particular vaccine LadyShea. You can choose what you want for your own child, but you cannot tell other parents what to do with their children. If you knew everything about the short and long term effects of these vaccines on every child's immune system, you'd win the Nobel prize. Please stop playing God.

You didn't read the article. They sent hate mail to a family that had just lost their baby to whooping cough. She was too young to be immunized so had to rely on community immunity to protect her, but anti-vaxxers are selfish assholes that don't care about that, and therefore incidents of pertussis are on the rise.

So fuck off with defending them.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Embarrassed about what? You can't take the heat, can you? I'm sorry that I disagree with your ideas on a lot of things, but that doesn't make me wrong and you right. If you don't like what I have to say, the door's open.

Embarrassed because you once again posted in support of stuff that you hadn't investigated at all. If you knew that the Zeitgeist Movement was a bunch of conspiracy theorists and anti-Semites, would you have still posted the videos for discussion?

[specious_reasons]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You can choose what you want for your own child, but you cannot tell other parents what to do with their children.

When it comes to vaccinations, the correct choice for almost all children is to receive vaccinations. There is even a US government program called "National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program" (National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program) because the government recognizes that vaccines may sometimes cause harm, but they are so very important for public health that the government insures against that possible harm.

So, yes, you can tell other parents what to do, because there is a correct answer, and the correct answer is to get your child vaccinated.

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You didn't read the article. They sent hate mail to a family that had just lost their baby to whooping cough.

Ah, I see. So calling someone a crackpot is an aggravated and egregious injustice, whereas writing "serves ya right" letters to the grieving parents of a dead child is A-OK so long as the letters come from anti-vaxers. After all, Ranger Mike is an anti-vaxer and peacegirl really likes Ranger Mike.

Gotta love that Lessans family morality.

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally Posted by thedoc

Stephen Maturin, I heard or read somewhere? that citizens were required to file an income tax return but paying the tax was voluntary.

Yeah, I've read that too, doc. Rest assured it's incorrect as a simple matter of fact. Federal law does indeed impose mandatory obligations to file and pay.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

I never got a pony so I had to buy my own when I grew up.

I didn't have a pony or a horse when I was young but my uncle had 2, and a farm, so he didn't have as much time to ride as he should. Horses needed to be taken out for exercise, so he asked me if I would come over and ride his horses for him. That was an interesting learning experience.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You didn't read the article. They sent hate mail to a family that had just lost their baby to whooping cough. She was too young to be immunized so had to rely on community immunity to protect her, but anti-vaxxers are selfish assholes that don't care about that, and therefore incidents of pertussis are on the rise.

So fuck off with defending them.

You are unbelievable LadyShea. I will defend whomever I want to defend. You are generalizing as usual. I never condone bad behavior, but that doesn't justify condemning an entire group who believe that each individual family has the right to make their own choice when it comes to vaccines or anything else. I didn't read the article, but it won't change my mind on the issue of freedom. The pertussis vaccine is extremely controversial because there have been children who have died from the vaccine itself. Some parents would rather take the risk of not vaccinating than vaccinating, which is their God-given choice.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/01/c...ine-death.html

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by specious_reasons

When it comes to vaccinations, the correct choice for almost all children is to receive vaccinations. There is even a US government program called "National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program" (National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program) because the government recognizes that vaccines may sometimes cause harm, but they are so very important for public health that the government insures against that possible harm.

So, yes, you can tell other parents what to do, because there is a correct answer, and the correct answer is to get your child vaccinated.

We live in a free country, and to take that most important right away from parents (by government) to decide what to put in the bodies of their children is morally and ethically wrong. Eventually vaccines will be offered on a volunteer basis based on up-to-date information.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Embarrassed because you once again posted in support of stuff that you hadn't investigated at all. If you knew that the Zeitgeist Movement was a bunch of conspiracy theorists and anti-Semites, would you have still posted the videos for discussion?

I will not judge an entire group of people as being anti-Semites unless there is absolute evidence that this group of people have an underlying motive. Then I would be doing the very thing that I oppose so strongly; making sweeping judgments with no support. How can you make a blanket statement like that?

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We live in a free country, and to take that most important right away from parents (by government) to decide what to put in the bodies of their children is morally and ethically wrong. Eventually vaccines will be offered on a volunteer basis based on up-to-date information.

Many people would argue that it's morally and ethically wrong to allow people to endanger others because they're ignorant of things like why herd immunity is important and/or they're too lazy to bother to get themselves or their kids vaccinated.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You are unbelievable LadyShea. I will defend whomever I want to defend. You are generalizing as usual. I never condone bad behavior, but that doesn't justify condemning an entire group who believe that each individual family has the right to make their own choice when it comes to vaccines or anything else. I didn't read the article, but it won't change my mind on the issue of freedom. The pertussis vaccine is extremely controversial because there have been children who have died from the vaccine itself. Some parents would rather take the risk of not vaccinating than vaccinating, which is their God-given choice.

Continuing the mantra that the medical profession is incompetent, but promoting a system where anyone can claim to be a doctor and set up practice without any oversight at all. If they think they are a doctor, then they are one.

And choices about vaccinating children are better left to fear and ignorance rather than actually knowing the facts. That sounds a lot like Lessanology that is based on ignorance rather than actually learning something about vision, psychology, and conscience.

[thedoc]

I believe that in reality vaccination is voluntary, it's just that to send the kids to a public school it is required that they be vaccinated. The answer is simple, home school your children, that way they can be susceptible to whatever infectious diseases come along and educated by totally incompetent teachers. That way they will have the full benefit of ignorance and stupidity. (For anyone who home schools their children, I was referring to Peacegirl.)

[specious_reasons]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We live in a free country, and to take that most important right away from parents (by government) to decide what to put in the bodies of their children is morally and ethically wrong. Eventually vaccines will be offered on a volunteer basis based on up-to-date information.

If you were a parent, and you want to do the right thing based on the most current up-to-date and scientific information, you would vaccinate your children. Not vaccinating your children is the behavior that is morally and ethically wrong.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by specious_reasons

If you were a parent, and you want to do the right thing based on the most current up-to-date and scientific information, you would vaccinate your children. Not vaccinating your children is the behavior that is morally and ethically wrong.

It's not just wrong as a parent, it is wrong as a human being. If enough people are not vaccinated for the common deadly diseases then we lose herd immunity. You are not only putting your kids at risk you put everyone at risk. We go back to the bad old days when your kid came home with a sniffle and a week later was dead or worse, disfigured, crippled or blinded for life. It is unfortunate that it has been too long since outcomes like that were far too common and people have become ignorantly complacent.

Oh well, nothing that a few pandemics of once eradicated diseases to kill off the morons and re-educate the rest.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

Oh well, nothing that a few pandemics of once eradicated diseases to kill off the morons and re-educate the rest.

Unfortunately it is often the morons who have the robust physical makeup, even though they lack in the mental prowess, that will survive, and it is the more delicate intellectual individuals who will succumb to the disease.

[LadyShea]

If they're that informed, then why are their responses to my question about Zeitgeist so uninformed?

Which responses do you feel demonstrate a lack of information, and on what basis did you conclude that they were uninformed?