A revolution in thought

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I'm not equating one with the other.

Then why did you use (i.e. squaline) after mentioning mercuy?

i.e. means "in other words" signifying that the word or phrase that follows is synonymous with the word or phrase that preceded it. So you not only equated them, you made them synonyms.

[Vivisectus]

Whether or not infants produce bile is secondary to the valid findings that mercury and aluminum are still being used in vaccines, and pose a serious risk to infants and young children.

Unless you know that these substances, int he form and amount they are used in vaccines, actually pose a threat this is really just another lie by the way.

Do you have any evidence to show that the risk you claim exists is real? If not, why are you claiming that you know that risk exists? Isn't claiming to know something when you do not lying?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Then why did you use (i.e. squalene) after mentioning mercuy?

i.e. means "in other words" signifying that the word or phrase that follows is synonymous with the word or phrase that preceded it. So you not only equated them, you made them synonyms.

You're right, that was confusing. I should have said mercury AND squalene because they're not synonymous.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Unless you know that these substances, int he form and amount they are used in vaccines, actually pose a threat this is really just another lie by the way.

Do you have any evidence to show that the risk you claim exists is real? If not, why are you claiming that you know that risk exists? Isn't claiming to know something when you do not lying?

Amazing, you must be in denial.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by thedoc

Are you seriously equating Mercury compounds to Squalene? Do you even know what squalene is? Did you know that there are higher concentrations of squalene occurring naturally in the human body than in most vaccines where it was used.

Added: Why is no one paying attention to anything that is being posted? Could it be you all have your heads in the sand? Your supposed double blind studies trying to prove that vaccines are safe is just ludicrous.

Squalene

"The most effective adjuvants are formulated with oils but have long been considered too reactive for use in humans. Immunologists have known for decades that a microscopic dose of even a few molecules of adjuvant injected into the body can cause disturbances in the immune system and have known since the 1930s that oil-based adjuvants are particularly dangerous, which is why their use has been restricted to experiments with animals," West wrote.

Squalene - A History Of Vaccine Development And The Newest Adjuvant - 12160

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You don't know how Google works.

I do know how google works.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Flu shots are not mandated, and thimerosol free versions are available.

We're talking about a much bigger problem than just the flu shot, which is the safety of the vaccine schedule that is now being mandated. That being said, the flu vaccine may have trace amounts of thimerosal in it, which can still be toxic.

According to the CDC, vaccines labeled “thimerosal-free” often have a little asterisk next to those words which lead you to something like: “This vaccine has ‘trace’ amounts of thimerosal, which the FDA says is equivalent to thimerosal-free products.” If we look closer into “thimerosal-free” vaccines, we will actually find that there is still a toxic amount of mercury contained in them.

The Flu Vaccine–What Your Doctor Won’t Tell You (Or Probably Doesn’t Even Know) | VaxTruth.org

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

That article seems to be arguing for the fact that autism rates have not gone up since thimerosol removal.

But it seems you have been arguing that they have gone up in recent years. That paper wants to link thimerasol to autism, so does not want autism rates to have increased. OTOH it also tries to make a case that thimerosal has not been removed, therefore playing both sides...or hedging their bets.

Which is it? Have autism rates increased, decreased, or stayed steady since 2000? If they've decreased, is it due to the thimerosal removal? If they've increased, that indicates thimerosal is not related to autism, if they've stayed steady, again is would appear thimerosal and autism are unrelated. So what exactly is being argued by you, peacegirl?

Also, that paper flat out lies (surprise, surprise!)

Lie number 1

The paper by Stehr-Green et al., for example, purported to study autism rates in Sweden after thimerosal removal in 1993, but only hospitalizations in relation to autism were analyzed. Anyone remotely familiar with autism knows that it is not the kind of condition for which one would typically go to a hospital for treatment.

From the cited Stehr-Green P, study

Where did this "hospitalization" nonsense come from?

From Denmark, a study of ALL children diagnosed with autism in a certain period

In the cases of many thimerosal victims, the link between autism and vaccines didn't appear until six years after the first vaccine was administered. While this statute has stopped some claims against vaccine manufacturers, including such big firms as Aventis, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck and Johnson & Johnson, many judges are now allowing suits against Eli Lilly, the maker of thimerosal, to stand. While the Vaccine Act shields vaccine manufacturers, one judge reasons that the legislation does not protect the production of thimerosal because it is a "component."

<snip>

Given no real causal mechanism linking thimerosal and autism, the game seems to have become one of slanting the data to suit the needs of government and industrial interests. Even Verstraeten has admitted that these "inconclusive" findings certainly don't rule out the possibility of finding a link in the future.

Learn more: The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regardless of the droves of faithful people hanging onto every word the CDC gives them about the safety of vaccines, I think it is incredibly important that we look at all of the information that truly exists and make our own educated decision. Many claim it is dangerous to question vaccines, and I have been threatened on many occasions for writing about it, but it isn’t going to take away the fact that people are being damaged by vaccines. That is a cold hard fact that every parent needs to know before deciding to vaccinate their child.

The truth is, there have been several court cases where families have been granted damage payouts due to what vaccines and their ingredients have done to their children. The cases are directly linked to autism and brain damage, and each injury has been deemed "caused by vaccines." Below I have supplied three links to court cases. Please take the time to check out each one to understand them further.

Page Not Found | US Court of Federal Claims

Page Not Found | US Court of Federal Claims

Page Not Found | US Court of Federal Claims

Is there more evidence linking vaccines to autism? Yes. While some studies exist to state that there is no link between vaccines and autism, I have found several that do show a link. Given the existence of these studies and their results, I think we need to truly examine whether or not vaccines are safe and if it makes sense for us to blindly follow what we are told to do when it comes to vaccines regardless of the dangers. I can already hear the comments that will come in from people stating the dangers of this post and that this is some conspiracy, but it is not. Realize that this is much more of a real and serious issue than many think.

Below is what I have come across in terms of studies, thanks to the tireless research of people out there who care about uncovering the truth.

Viral / Immune studies:

Abnormal measles-mumps-rubella antibodies and CNS autoimmunity in children with autism

Autoimmunity to the central nervous system (CNS), especially to myelin basic protein (MBP), may play a causal role in autism, a neurodevelopmental disorder. Because many autistic children harbor elevated levels of measles antibodies, we conducted a serological study of measles-mumps-rubella
(MMR) and MBP autoantibodies.

….over 90% of MMR antibody-positive autistic sera were also positive for MBP autoantibodies, suggesting a strong association between MMR and CNS autoimmunity in autism. Stemming from this evidence, we suggest that an inappropriate antibody response to MMR, specifically the measles component thereof, might be related to pathogenesis of autism.

Serological association of measles virus and human herpes virus-6 with brain auto-antibodies in autism

This study is the first to report an association between virus serology and brain autoantibody in autism; it supports the hypothesis that a virus-induced autoimmune response may play a causal role in autism.

Hypothesis: conjugate vaccines may predispose children to autism spectrum disorders

Conjugate vaccines fundamentally change the manner in which the immune systems of infants and young children function by deviating their immune responses to the targeted carbohydrate antigens from a state of hypo-responsiveness to a robust B2 B cell mediated response.

This period of hypo-responsiveness to carbohydrate antigens coincides with the intense myelination process in infants and young children, and conjugate vaccines may have disrupted evolutionary forces that favored early brain development over the need to protect infants and young children from capsular bacteria.

Effects of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory symptoms among children and adolescents in the United States.

The odds of having a history of asthma was twice as great among vaccinated subjects than among unvaccinated subjects The odds of having had any allergy-related respiratory symptom in the past 12 months was 63% greater among vaccinated subjects than unvaccinated subjects The associations between vaccination and subsequent allergies and symptoms were greatest among children aged 5 through 10 years.

Neurological Complications of Pertussis Immunization

Review is made of 107 cases of neurological complications of pertussis inoculation reported in the literature. The early onset of neurological symptoms was characteristic, with changes of consciousness and convulsions as the most striking features. The question of aetiology is considered and contraindications are discussed….as is the grave danger of further inoculations when a previous one has produced any suggestion of a neurological reaction.

Hepatitis B vaccination of male neonates and autism diagnosis, NHIS 1997-2002.

Findings suggest that U.S. male neonates vaccinated with the hepatitis B vaccine prior to 1999 (from vaccination record) had a threefold higher risk for parental report of autism diagnosis compared to boys not vaccinated as neonates during that same time period. Nonwhite boys bore a greater risk.

Aluminum Studies:

Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?

Our results show that: (i) children from countries with the highest ASD prevalence appear to have the highest exposure to Al from vaccines; (ii) the increase in exposure to Al adjuvants significantly correlates with the increase in ASD prevalence in the United States observed over the last two decades;

and (iii) a significant correlation exists between the amounts of Al administered to preschool children and the current prevalence of ASD in seven Western countries, particularly at 3-4 months of age.

Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration.

…A second series of experiments was conducted on mice injected with six doses of aluminum hydroxide. Behavioural analyses in these mice revealed significant impairments in a number of motor functions as well as diminished spatial memory capacity.

Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants: Are they Safe?

Experimental research, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. click for entire study

Thimerosal studies:

Integrating experimental (in vitro and in vivo) neurotoxicity studies of low-dose thimerosal relevant to vaccines.

There is a need to interpret neurotoxic studies to help deal with uncertainties surrounding pregnant mothers, newborns and young children who must receive repeated doses of Thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs).

Information extracted from studies indicates that: (a) activity of low doses of Thimerosal against isolated human and animal brain cells was found in all studies and is consistent with Hg neurotoxicity; (b) the neurotoxic effect of ethylmercury has not been studied with co-occurring adjuvant-Al in TCVs; (c) animal studies have shown that exposure to Thimerosal-Hg can lead to accumulation of inorganic Hg in brain, and that (d) doses relevant to TCV exposure possess the potential to affect human neuro-development.

Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing childhood immunizations: a follow-up analysis.
The present study provides additional epidemiological evidence supporting previous epidemiological, clinical and experimental evidence that administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in the United States resulted in a significant number of children developing NDs.
Neonatal administration of thimerosal causes persistent changes in mu opioid receptors in the rat brain
These data document that exposure to thimerosal during early postnatal life produces lasting alterations in the densities of brain opioid receptors along with other neuropathological changes, which may disturb brain development.
Persistent behavioral impairments and alterations of brain dopamine system after early postnatal administration of thimerosal in rats.
These data document that early postnatal THIM administration causes lasting neurobehavioral impairments and neurochemical alterations in the brain, dependent on dose and sex. If similar changes occur in THIM/mercurial-exposed children, they could contribute do neurodevelopmental disorders.
Maternal Thimerosal Exposure Results in Aberrant Cerebellar Oxidative Stress, Thyroid Hormone Metabolism, and Motor Behavior in Rat Pups; Sex- and Strain-Dependent Effects.

Thimerosal exposure also resulted in a significant increase in cerebellar levels of the oxidative stress marker 3-nitrotyrosine…. This coincided with an increased (47.0%) expression of a gene negatively regulated by T3,… Our data thus demonstrate a negative neurodevelopmental impact of perinatal thimerosal exposure.

Administration of thimerosal to infant rats increases overflow of glutamate and aspartate in the prefrontal cortex: protective role of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate.

Thimerosal, a mercury-containing vaccine preservative, is a suspected factor in the etiology of neurodevelopmental disorders. We previously showed that its administration to infant rats causes behavioral, neurochemical and neuropathological abnormalities similar to those present in autism.

Sources:

Can We Trust the CDC Claim that There is No Link Between Vaccines and Autism? | Health Impact News

Vaccine Controversy | A PubMed Compilation : 15 to start with.

Elsevier

RELATED ACTIVIST POST ARTICLE:
Lead Gardasil Vaccine Creator Confesses to Clear Conscience

Activist Post: Courts Rule Vaccines Containing MMR and Thimerosal Caused Autism and Brain Damage

[The Lone Ranger]

Note, for the record, that you and your source claimed that mercury compounds are dangerous to infants because infants don't produce bile, and so can't excrete mercury compounds. But since the claim that infants don't produce bile is an outright lie ...

Note, also, that you claimed mercury compounds posed a unique risk to infants because infants lack a BBB, and so these compounds can cross into and directly affect development of the brain and spinal cord. But the claim that infants don't have a functional blood-brain barrier is also an outright lie.

Hmm ...

[LadyShea]

You didn't answer my questions

Have autism rates increased, decreased, or stayed steady since 2000?
If they've decreased, is it due to the thimerosal removal?
If they've increased, that indicates thimerosal is not related to autism, if they've stayed steady, again is would appear thimerosal and autism are unrelated.

So what exactly is being argued by you, peacegirl, regarding mercury in vaccines and autism? What is your position?

Also, your copy/paste didn't address mine at all. Specifically the Denmark study that included ALL children diagnosed with autism

A total of 956 children with a male-to-female ratio of 3.5:1 had been diagnosed with autism during the period from 1971-2000. There was no trend toward an increase in the incidence of autism during that period when thimerosal was used in Denmark, up through 1990. From 1991 until 2000 the incidence increased and continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, including increases among children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal.

Did you plan to address the outright lie I found as well? Your sources have offered 3 easily refuted lies just in the last 2 days! Why do you find them credible?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

Note, for the record, that you and your source claimed that mercury compounds are dangerous to infants because infants don't produce bile, and so can't excrete mercury compounds. But since the claim that infants don't produce bile is an outright lie ...

Note, also, that you claimed mercury compounds posed a unique risk to infants because infants lack a BBB, and so these compounds can cross into and directly affect development of the brain and spinal cord. But the claim that infants don't have a functional blood-brain barrier is also an outright lie.

Hmm ...

Whether she was right or wrong on these two arguments is actually beside the point, so please don't go off onto a tangent claiming that everything that is posited by her or others is, by association, wrong.

What is central to this argument is whether these vaccines are the cause of neurological problems in children. Bernard might not have gotten the pathway of how this toxic soup of chemicals affects the central nervous system correct, but that does not exclude the claim that vaccines have serious risk factors that need to be studied in further depth.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You didn't answer my questions

Have autism rates increased, decreased, or stayed steady since 2000?
If they've decreased, is it due to the thimerosal removal?
If they've increased, that indicates thimerosal is not related to autism, if they've stayed steady, again is would appear thimerosal and autism are unrelated.

So what exactly is being argued by you, peacegirl, regarding mercury in vaccines and autism? What is your position?

Also, your copy/paste didn't address mine at all. Specifically the Denmark study that included ALL children diagnosed with autism

Did you plan to address the outright lie I found as well? Your sources have offered 3 easily refuted lies just in the last 2 days! Why do you find them credible?

Did you purposely ignore that there are residual effects from the thimerosal vaccine that can last up to 6 years? Did the tests of autistic children exclude this group, or was it an inherently flawed study?

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

In the cases of many thimerosal victims, the link between autism and vaccines didn't appear until six years after the first vaccine was administered. While this statute has stopped some claims against vaccine manufacturers, including such big firms as Aventis, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck and Johnson & Johnson, many judges are now allowing suits against Eli Lilly, the maker of thimerosal, to stand. While the Vaccine Act shields vaccine manufacturers, one judge reasons that the legislation does not protect the production of thimerosal because it is a "component."



Given no real causal mechanism linking thimerosal and autism, the game seems to have become one of slanting the data to suit the needs of government and industrial interests. Even Verstraeten has admitted that these "inconclusive" findings certainly don't rule out the possibility of finding a link in the future.

Learn more: The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health

Check the dates of all the citations on that page and find me something post 2003. It's all old.

[I]Regardless of the droves of faithful people hanging onto every word the CDC gives them about the safety of vaccines, I think it is incredibly important that we look at all of the information that truly exists and make our own educated decision. Many claim it is dangerous to question vaccines, and I have been threatened on many occasions for writing about it, but it isn’t going to take away the fact that people are being damaged by vaccines. That is a cold hard fact that every parent needs to know before deciding to vaccinate their child.

1) The truth is, there have been several court cases where families have been granted damage payouts due to what vaccines and their ingredients have done to their children. The cases are directly linked to autism and brain damage, and each injury has been deemed "caused by vaccines." Below I have supplied three links to court cases. Please take the time to check out each one to understand them further.

Page Not Found | US Court of Federal Claims

Page Not Found | US Court of Federal Claims

Page Not Found | US Court of Federal Claims

Is there more evidence linking vaccines to autism? Yes. While some studies exist to state that there is no link between vaccines and autism, I have found several that do show a link. Given the existence of these studies and their results, I think we need to truly examine whether or not vaccines are safe and if it makes sense for us to blindly follow what we are told to do when it comes to vaccines regardless of the dangers. I can already hear the comments that will come in from people stating the dangers of this post and that this is some conspiracy, but it is not. Realize that this is much more of a real and serious issue than many think.

None of those links to court cases work, meaning they are way out of date. Allegations cannot be verified.

Below is what I have come across in terms of studies, thanks to the tireless research of people out there who care about uncovering the truth.

Abnormal measles-mumps-rubella antibodies and CNS autoimmunity in children with autism

Autoimmunity to the central nervous system (CNS), especially to myelin basic protein (MBP), may play a causal role in autism, a neurodevelopmental disorder. Because many autistic children harbor elevated levels of measles antibodies, we conducted a serological study of measles-mumps-rubella
(MMR) and MBP autoantibodies.

This study is from 2001. The question was regarding if autism has declined or increased since the removal of thimerosal in 2000

That being said, the researchers thought a variant of actual measles virus might be implicated (Link to ACTUAL STUDY rather than someone's interpretation: Study PDF

autistic children showed a serological correlation between MMR and brain autoimmunity, i.e., over 90% of MMR antibody-positive autistic sera also had autoanti-bodies to brain MBP. This is quite an intriguing observa-tion in favor of a connection between atypical measles infection and autism; an atypical infection usually refers to infection that occurs in the absence of a rash. An atypi-cal measles infection in the absence of a rash and unusual neurological symptoms was recently described to suggest the existence of a variant MV in children and adults [9].

In light of these new findings, we suggest that a consider-able proportion of autistic cases may result from an atypi-cal measles infection that does not produce a rash but causes neurological symptoms in some children. The source of this virus could be a variant MV or it could be
the MMR vaccine. Scientifically, therefore, it is instruc-tive to consider both these possibilities and uncover them through experimental research. We think that this is an extremely important public health issue, quite simply
because some scientists have recently warned us about the emergence of a mutant MV that causes fatal illnesses in man [9]. If this is the case, then new vaccination strategies will be required to combat mutant measles infection.
While more research is necessary to establish a pathogno-monic role for MMR/MV, we are currently exploring the role of virus-induced autoimmunity and our future re-search is aimed at characterizing the molecular basis of
cellular and humoral immunity to viral antigens in chil-dren with autism.
Ack

Here is the reference to the mutant measles virus citation above http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119899/

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Did you purposely ignore that there are residual effects from the thimerosal vaccine that can last up to 6 years? Did the tests of autistic children exclude this group, or was it an inherently flawed study?

Have the anti-vaccination scientists done any follow-up studies on children not exposed at all, like my own son who was born in 2006? Have you looked at the actual studies yourself to see if they were flawed? Why did you ignore the bulk of my post?

BTW, I can find no study citation or evidence to support the statement about effects 6 years later at the link where the statement was made. It is an unsupported assertion for the moment.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Whether she was right or wrong on these two arguments is actually beside the point, so please don't go off onto a tangent claiming that everything that is posited by her or others is, by association, wrong.

What is central to this argument is whether these vaccines are the cause of neurological problems in children. Bernard might not have gotten the pathway of how this toxic soup of chemicals affects the central nervous system correct, but that does not exclude the claim that vaccines have serious risk factors that need to be studied in further depth.

That is a textbook example of moving the goalposts.

[LadyShea]

Interesting. Studies into familial autoimmune disease, and other immunity related factors, and correlations with autism have been ongoing for over a decade. This recent study shows:

About one in ten women who have a child with autism have immune molecules in their bloodstream that react with proteins in the brain, according to a study published 20 August in Molecular Psychiatry1.

Several research groups have found these immune molecules, called antibodies, in mothers of children with autism, and have shown that prenatal exposure to the antibodies alters social behavior in mice and monkeys.

The new study, which includes more than 2,700 mothers of children with autism, is the largest survey yet on the prevalence of these anti-brain antibodies.

“It’s a very large sample size,” says study leader Betty Diamond, head of the Center for Autoimmune and Musculoskeletal Disorders at The Feinstein Institute for Medical Research in Long Island, New York. The scale gives a clearer impression of the prevalence of these antibodies, she says. Large study links autism to autoimmune disease in mothers — SFARI.org - Simons Foundation Autism Research Initiative

A new, large-scale study of more than 2,700 mothers of children with autism shows that about one in 10 mothers have antibodies in their bloodstream that react with proteins in the brain of their babies.

Science Daily

Autoimmune problems that strike during pregnancy may be behind more than 20 percent of autism cases, a new study suggests.

Normally during pregnancy, immune proteins from the mother cross the placental barrier and protect the child from foreign invaders such as bacteria and viruses. But in a sizable number of mothers with children on the autism spectrum, these immune proteins essentially attack the child’s brain tissue instead, according to a new study from the University of California, Davis’ MIND Institute. This autoimmune attack causes changes in the baby’s brain that lead to symptoms of autism, such as repetitive behaviors and a limited ability to communicate, a second study in monkeys suggests. Both studies were published Tuesday in the journal Translational Psychiatry.

the new research, which Autism Speaks helped fund in an earlier stage, represents “a very important finding that is going to lead us to better identification of autism.”

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2013/07...on-test-for-it

[The Lone Ranger]

Exactly so. Just look at those goalposts fly!


And peacegirl, why on Earth is it that the fact that your sources are outright lying in order to "support" their case doesn't concern you? No objective person would regard the testimony of a demonstrated liar to be reliable, and no honest person would cite known lies as support for her argument.

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Interesting. Studies into familial autoimmune disease, and other immunity related factors, and correlations with autism have been ongoing for over a decade. This recent study shows

It's worth noting that some (though not all) antibodies can cross the placenta and be passed from mother to fetus. Similarly, some antibodies are secreted into the milk, and so can be passed from mother to child during breast feeding. (This is one reason why it's generally believed that breast-fed children are less susceptible to many infections than are those raised on formula or cow's milk.)

[LadyShea]

We know antibodies are passed between mother and child, offering infants protection. In these cases it looks like some kind of autoimmune ones are passed the same way, causing an attack on the brain tissue. I found it fascinating.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We're talking about a much bigger problem than just the flu shot, which is the safety of the vaccine schedule that is now being mandated. That being said, the flu vaccine may have trace amounts of thimerosal in it, which can still be toxic.

According to the CDC, vaccines labeled “thimerosal-free” often have a little asterisk next to those words which lead you to something like: “This vaccine has ‘trace’ amounts of thimerosal, which the FDA says is equivalent to thimerosal-free products.” If we look closer into “thimerosal-free” vaccines, we will actually find that there is still a toxic amount of mercury contained in them.

The Flu Vaccine–What Your Doctor Won’t Tell You (Or Probably Doesn’t Even Know) | VaxTruth.org

Did you look at the FDA chart that the articles you posted earlier linked to? Then you have no idea what you're talking about at all, do you? Quit moving the goalposts! We've been talking about a mercury/autism link because YOU brought it up. You don't get to move away from it.

The only vaccine that still contains thimerosal is some flu vaccine formulations. There are thimerosal free flu vaccines available as well. Anyone can ask for those if they are concerned.

Also, the flu vaccine is not mandated for school enrollment, so can simply be declined. My son has had exactly one flu vaccine in 8 years during a particularly bad outbreak last year. In other years I chose not to get him vaccinated for flu. So this means your complaint about mandated vaccines containing mercury is completely invalid.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

The "list of vaccines" you can link to are some flu vaccines. Flu vaccine is not mandated for school attendance and there are mercury free versions available.

Thimerosal in Vaccines

So, have autism rates declined since 2000 when thimerosol was removed from vaccines?

Go to your own link. Go to the link provided in the sentence "For a list of vaccines that still contain mercury above EPA safety levels click here." Tell me which vaccines still contain mercury.

When done answer the question you've been avoiding: have autism rates declined since thimerosol was removed from vaccines?

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You didn't answer my questions

Have autism rates increased, decreased, or stayed steady since 2000?
If they've decreased, is it due to the thimerosal removal?
If they've increased, that indicates thimerosal is not related to autism, if they've stayed steady, again is would appear thimerosal and autism are unrelated.

If that is the case, why do Amish children, who don't get vaccinated, hardly ever get autism or other neurological problems.

Thousands of children cared for by Homefirst Health Services in metropolitan Chicago have at least two things in common with thousands of Amish children in rural Lancaster: They have never been vaccinated. And they don't have autism.

Where is the simple, straightforward study of autism in never-vaccinated U.S. children? Based on our admittedly anecdotal and limited reporting among the Amish, the home-schooled and now Chicago's Homefirst, that may prove to be a significant omission.

NO AUTISM FOR UNVACCINATED AMISH?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

So what exactly is being argued by you, peacegirl, regarding mercury in vaccines and autism? What is your position?

I care about safety. I am not at all convinced that these toxins pose no threat. How do you know government data isn't skewed the other way? Afterall, many in government are financially involved with the very companies that produce the vaccine. Doesn't that bother you? Regardless, there are way too many unknowns yet to be identified to know how great the risk is to babies.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Also, your copy/paste didn't address mine at all. Specifically the Denmark study that included ALL children diagnosed with autism

While officials at the Center for Disease Control claim evidence is lacking to support the possible risks of thimerosal, Dr. Mark Geier, a Maryland geneticist and vaccinologist, along with his son and research partner David Geier, says the CDC has chosen to ignore the science. According to Dr. Geier, more than 5,000 articles have been published that question the safety of thimerosal in vaccines.

The Geiers analyzed the data and determined that the more thimerosal a child receives, the greater his or her chances are of being autistic. The CDC says the Geiers misused information from a CDC database that was not intended to help prove theories. Given no real causal mechanism linking thimerosal and autism, the game seems to have become one of slanting the data to suit the needs of government and industrial interests.

While officials at the Center for Disease Control claim evidence is lacking to support the possible risks of thimerosal, Dr. Mark Geier, a Maryland geneticist and vaccinologist, along with his son and research partner David Geier, says the CDC has chosen to ignore the science. According to Dr. Geier, more than 5,000 articles have been published that question the safety of thimerosal in vaccines.

The Geiers analyzed the data and determined that the more thimerosal a child receives, the greater his or her chances are of being autistic. The CDC says the Geiers misused information from a CDC database that was not intended to help prove theories. Given no real causal mechanism linking thimerosal and autism, the game seems to have become one of slanting the data to suit the needs of government and industrial interests.

The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Did you plan to address the outright lie I found as well? Your sources have offered 3 easily refuted lies just in the last 2 days! Why do you find them credible?

Why do you call it a lie? You throw this word around like it's nothing. This is copycat central. Do you think the government's report is trustworthy? Who did the study? So many people in government are corrupt. Maybe you haven't noticed. They could have put any number in they wanted to.

Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, a Florida family practitioner with ties to families who homeschool their children for religious reasons, told Age of Autism he has proposed such a study in that group. "I said I know I can tap into this community and find you large numbers of unvaccinated homeschooled," said Bradstreet, "and we can do simple prevalence and incidence studies in them, and my gut reaction is that you're going to see no autism in this group." Latest news, Latest News Headlines, news articles, news video, news photos - UPI.com StoryID=20060728-111605-3532r

[Feb 2008] MMR AND THE SIMPLE TRUTH ABOUT AUTISM Does the measles- mumps-rubella vaccine cause autism? I vote yes. Of course, that's just one man's opinion * but one who's spent the last three years listening to parents and enlightened pediatricians and combing through adverse events reports and just generally trying to think for himself.

NO AUTISM In Never-Vaccinated Children

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

Note, for the record, that you and your source claimed that mercury compounds are dangerous to infants because infants don't produce bile, and so can't excrete mercury compounds. But since the claim that infants don't produce bile is an outright lie ...

Note, also, that you claimed mercury compounds posed a unique risk to infants because infants lack a BBB, and so these compounds can cross into and directly affect development of the brain and spinal cord. But the claim that infants don't have a functional blood-brain barrier is also an outright lie.

Hmm ...

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I don't know if this is true or not, but it's worth checking out.

The blood-brain barrier is not intact in infants until at least 6 weeks of life. This is why a newborn with a fever must be subjected to a spinal tap to rule out meningitis. Any virus or bacteria that a newborn is exposed to can go directly to the nervous system.

Now about diet, well until six weeks or in premature babies, there is only one diet..i.e. Milk. So i dont think it would play an important role in it.

However, it is also the reason why the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth is so dangerous. Between 1991 and 1999, when the shot contained thimerisol, giving it at birth would have resulted in mercury crossing into the brain since the blood-brain barrier was not yet intact.

The normal timing of a blood-brain barrier forming is not more readily known.

In newborn and premature babies, the blood-brain barrier is not fully developed.? - Yahoo! Answers

What is central to this argument is whether these vaccines are the cause of neurological problems in children. Bernard might not have gotten the pathway of how this toxic soup of chemicals affects the central nervous system correct, but that does not exclude the claim that vaccines have serious risk factors that need to be studied in further depth.

Originally Posted by LadyShea

That is a textbook example of moving the goalposts.

Actually it isn't. There are too many reports of changes in children's health status after being given vaccines. You are looking at limited studies (studies that are being put out by the very people who have a financial stake) to prove that there is no link between vaccines and the increase in chronic conditions that we are seeing today. That's not good enough. And even if their numbers are accurate, it still may give a false picture of thimerosal's impact on the developing brain.

In a Chicago Tribune piece titled, "A contradiction taints flu shots among infants," writer Julie Deardorff said that as a mom, she was concerned that health experts are now recommending a shot that in most cases contains an ingredient they suggested removing six years ago.

"It was eliminated from nearly all vaccines with one exception: the flu vaccine. Now the academy (American Academy of Pediatrics) wants us to immunize infants with a vaccine that contains an ingredient that it suggests should be removed," Deardorff wrote.

She quotes an Illinois AAP spokesman about the apparent contradiction:

"The amount (of thimerosal) in the multidose influenza vaccine (12.5 micrograms) is well below even the most conservative standards for mercury exposure. ... There's no evidence that thimerosal in vaccines is dangerous, and the benefits kids get from being protected against the flu are substantial."

Still, it needs to be noted that the immunization schedule calls for two 12.5 microgram shots a month apart for the 6-to-23-month olds. That total of is the same amount that was in vaccines some parents believe triggered their child's autism. And some of them believe in utero exposure to mercury via the pregnant mother might be the most dangerous exposure of all.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2005/...#ixzz2gsHf8P7S

[The Lone Ranger]

Here's a thought: why don't you check actual medical journals, as opposed to doing a web search until you find some random person on Yahoo who happens to be saying what you want to believe?

If you do, you'll discover that the BBB is well-established by the 28th week of development -- that is, before the child is even born.


Or, of course, you could just keep lying and "supporting" your claims with demonstrable falsehoods.


I know which is more likely ...

[LadyShea]

Amish children? WTF, peacegirl! What do you think you know about the Amish? Where does that information come from? How was it verified?

You are weaseling away as fast as you can....specifically by moving the goalposts yet again.

Originally Posted by Wiki

Moving the goalposts, also known as raising the bar, is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. In other words, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.[2] The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed too. It counts for less