If it looks like a gun...

[Miss Shelby]

…walks like a gun, talks like a gun. It's probably a fucking gun. At least that's what you should expect the police to assume.

'Cops' Crew Member Killed in Omaha Police Shooting - ABC News

[Adam]

Also, if you happen to be in the same room with someone holding an item that looks or walks or whatever like a gun, even if you actually arrived with the police, you should probably expect them to shoot you too, because why the hell not?

[Ari]

Yep, sadly.
It's also a blow to gun fantasy (not that anyone will listen) when trained members of police kill a clear bystander in a one way gun battle, where the cops shot all the bullets and weren't under real fire.

Sure makes me feel safe when untrained civilians walk around with guns just waiting for their moment to be a hero and shoot a bystander.

[Ari]

I also find it telling that this is both a pretty common event* and yet no white "open carry" member has yet been gunned down by cops for carrying a real gun that looks real.

*Two recent cases,
California cops shoot dead 13-year-old boy armed with toy gun - NY Daily News
Cops shoot and kill man holding toy gun in Wal-Mart | MSNBC

[ImGod]

The cops guy was wearing a bullet proof vest too.

And bullets passed by the lady behind the counter. And bullets went through several walls in the business across the street, but it was 2:30 in the morning so nobody was there.

It seems resonable if the 2 cops would have shot 2 times each then checked the situtation. But I think they set up a cross fire where they were shooting at each other until they ran out of bullets and realized it. 30 shots, one dead suspect, one dead ride along wearing body armor, almost hit a store employee, and bullets stopping in other buildings in the neighborhood.

[Ari]

Yep, it seems like taking your chances with a robber with a 'gun' is safer than calling the cops.
There was a bank robbery in stockton a month or so back, 2 hostages injured and 1 killed by the cops, 0 hostages injured or killed by the robbers.

[ImGod]

Had the police not shown up, the guy with an airsoft gun would have taken $100-$200 out of a register and ran.

They could have shot him in the street if they wanted. I'm not sure why the police entered the store if they saw him pointing a gun at people.

There are snapshots of the guy from the store video here. I could see this as a justifiable shooting, but charging into the store seemed like it needlessly endangered the people inside.

http://www.ketv.com/news

Banks don't have armed guards and hand over the money so robbers leave without hurting anyone.

[Miss Shelby]

if the parolee with a huge rap sheet wasn't pretending he had a gun to hold up a store, none of it ever would have happened.

[Ari]

Yeah it's not as if the cops shoot unarmed people or anything.
Or say, double check their line of fire, or whether or not the guy actually fired bullets.

What do you think these are, trained professionals!?

[ImGod]

I never said they shouldn't have shot the guy. I said they should have waited outside to shoot him rather than rush in to shoot him. If it was a real gun, the prudent thing to do would be to wait until he wasn't pointing it around at people (or, say, shoot towards the people he was threatening yourself).

It's almost like they were playing COPS on TV or something rather than thinking of the safety of those around them.

[ceptimus]

In the recent incident in London where terrorists killed an off-duty soldier and then ran at police wielding knives, the police shot the terrorists in the legs bringing them down: the terrorists were subsequently tried for murder, found guilty and imprisoned.

It seems that police in the USA are taught never to use their guns unless they spray bullets everywhere and ensure that the people they're shooting at are really really dead.

[The Lone Ranger]

That may be true.

I can't say whether it's true generally, but I was once told by a police officer that he had been taught that if you find that you must shoot at a person, you should empty the clip.

The reasoning, he said, was that since a gun is a deadly weapon, you should never use it against another human being unless you're intending to kill him or her. As such, if you're shooting at someone, the working assumption is that this person is a "bad guy" who needs to be dead. And so you should empty the clip at him or her.

[ceptimus]

Yeah. The flaw in the logic there is that 1) The bad guy doesn't "need to be dead" and 2) The police might have made a mistake and the guy they're shooting may not be bad.

I'm not advocating that they police should put themselves at undue extra risk, but if a potential attacker or runaway can be stopped - maybe injured but not dead - then I suggest that this is a better policy than executing them on the spot.

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

As such, if you're an American police officer shooting at someone, the working assumption is that this person is a "bad guy" who needs to be dead.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

In the recent incident in London where terrorists killed an off-duty soldier and then ran at police wielding knives, the police shot the terrorists in the legs bringing them down: the terrorists were subsequently tried for murder, found guilty and imprisoned.

It seems that police in the USA are taught never to use their guns unless they spray bullets everywhere and ensure that the people they're shooting at are really really dead.

Yes...the police in the US are usually taught to aim for the center of the largest mass of the attacker...at the center of the torso. This is an attempt to maximize the chances of actually hitting the perp, as handguns, including those used by the police, are notoriously inaccurate, particularly in 'clutch' situations. Officers are not supposed to return fire if there is any chance of hitting non-involved individuals near the scene.

Once the perps started answering with semi-automatic gunfire and obtaining nasty loads, the police (like in my town) started training their officers to shoot when they 'thought' the perp was armed. This has led to repeated incidents of the officers shooting unarmed perps (usually black) in the back....an entirely indefensible act for a police officer.

Of course, we're the city infamous for having eight uniformed officers kick to death an unarmed mentally ill man for urinating in the street, so you have to take that kind of shit in to consideration.

[ZEZOZE]

They can easily get two episodes out of that.

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by Ari

I also find it telling that this is both a pretty common event* and yet no white "open carry" member has yet been gunned down by cops for carrying a real gun that looks real.

*Two recent cases,
California cops shoot dead 13-year-old boy armed with toy gun - NY Daily News
Cops shoot and kill man holding toy gun in Wal-Mart | MSNBC

Why take the risk? If it's a real gun they might shoot back. If it's a toy gun, it's obviously safe to take them out, duh.

[ImGod]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

That may be true.

I can't say whether it's true generally, but I was once told by a police officer that he had been taught that if you find that you must shoot at a person, you should empty the clip.

The reasoning, he said, was that since a gun is a deadly weapon, you should never use it against another human being unless you're intending to kill him or her. As such, if you're shooting at someone, the working assumption is that this person is a "bad guy" who needs to be dead. And so you should empty the clip at him or her.

Since this shooting occured in town here, they've been talking to the local police about fake guns, real guns, etc.

Last night they showed a seargent that they timed shooting 10 rounds center mass on a target in 2.17 seconds. From about 15 feet.

If their training consists of speed to empty at close range, it confirms my opinion that they should be limited to 6 shot revolvers. I think a sizable percentage of policemen would not pass the minimum requirements of a concealed carry permit class.

[Dingfod]

There are no marksmanship requirements to get a concealed carry permit in Oklahoma.

[ImGod]

These are the requirements here. It's an 8 hour class.

Nebraska Concealed Carry Class

Topics Covered:

Conflict Resolution
Situational Awareness
Firearms Safety Rules
Safe Handgun Storage
Basic Handgun Shooting Fundamentals
Basic Handgun and Handgun Ammunition Nomenclature
Concealed Carry Techniques- Holsters and Methods of Carry
Federal/State/Local Laws regarding Purchase, Ownership, Firearms Possession and Transportation
Federal-State-Local Laws regarding Use of Force, Degrees of Assault & Justifiable Homicide
Nebraska State Statutes
City Ordinances
Rules and Regulations of the Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit Program.


Written Test

30 questions
70% score needed to pass


Range

Student will complete a few practice drills
30 round Qualification
70% score needed to pass
(FBI "Q" Target)

[1Samuel8]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

- maybe injured but not dead -

The flaw in your logic is that you presume the policy officers can aim.
Perhaps, it is unreasonable to expect them to have good enough aim in a sudden time of crisis. Perhaps if you were in their shoes, you would decide to take him down.

Fodder for a 3rd episode.

[ceptimus]

I think the police in the London incident were marksmen with rifles. A different kettle of fish, I suppose.

[Artemis Entreri]

"Police say Washington fired first, but when officers shot back..."
"After the shooting, police discovered that Washington's weapon was an air gun that shoots only plastic pellets."

So are they stupid or liars?
Either the suspect didn't "fire first" or the cops are too stupid to tell an airsoft "poof" from an actual gunshot.
Maybe the guy yelled "bang!"