Karen Hughes Teaches Constitutional Law

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by eldar

We're all adults. You don't like someone's specific brand of bullshit, call them on it (as you did with godfry).

I'm curious here, eldar.

Do you think my comment was "bullshit"? I'm just wondering because it was in response to ms_an_thrope's comment about Hughes nattering on about Saddam gassing 300,000 of his own people. I find it curious that the US government keeps pushing this out for public consumption without mention of where Saddam got the stuff...which was from us. I thought it entirely in line with the topic under discussion here.

I've already answered Fool Hand's straw man about my love for my country, yet he has yet to address statement I've made in any semblence of a direct fashion.

I know! He's using the ol' "divert their attention" ploy...a tried and true Republican favorite. He was probably part of the gunboats committee that smeared Kerry. Yeah...that's the ticket.

[livius drusus]

Grow up, godfry.

[wei yau]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

I'm curious here, eldar.

Do you think my comment was "bullshit"?

Not necessarily. I did not mean to make a judgement on your comment. I simply wanted to point out to Cool Hand that if he took issue with a particular comment from a particular poster, then he needs to address it with the poster (as he seemingly did with you) instead of casting this whole forum as a vast leftwing groupmind out to shut down the voices of all rightists.

I thought it entirely in line with the topic under discussion here.

Certainly more in line with the topic than crying about repression in this forum.

I know! He's using the ol' "divert their attention" ploy...a tried and true Republican favorite. He was probably part of the gunboats committee that smeared Kerry. Yeah...that's the ticket.

Well, I don't know if it is a ploy. I'm sure he truly believes that his dissenting opinion isn't welcome here, although I'm not sure what his opinion is to even determine if it is actually dissenting. Granted, I tend to stay away from political threads (for precisely this reason), so I may have missed something here.

But, as for this thread, all I've seen is a laughably weak defense of Karen Hughes' comments. Some high-handed comments that some of you leftie posters can actually post with intelligence and wit. And finally, the tired old "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

I believe in acting. I believe in making your own situation better. If you don't like the tone of the conversation, you elevate it. You become better than it, you don't just sit in the corner and pout and claim that nobody likes you.

Honestly. Between this and the whole "harassment" thing, I'm starting to wonder if some us aren't just a mite too thin-skinned.

[godfry n. glad]

Thanks, eldar.

And liv? Your disapproprium is misdirected. Fool Hand is the one sucking his thumb and whimpering.

[ms_ann_thrope]

FYI, the reason why I noted her repeated assertion of "300,000 gassed by Saddam!" was because the incident at Halabjah 17 years ago actually involved 295,000 fewer victims than that (I didn't even mention the fact that there is still a great deal of controversy over whether the gas was from Iraq or Iran, but I'm willing to stipulate that it was Saddam). I think it's disrepectful of her (or anyone) to invoke their deaths as casus belli for our presence in Iraq; but it bugs me even MORE when they get the data WRONG.

Honestly. Between this and the whole "harassment" thing, I'm starting to wonder if some us aren't just a mite too thin-skinned.

Word. It's the intarwebs, people.

[viscousmemories]

Eldar, Cool Hand said he thinks political discussions at the FF are skewed to the left and that many people here express an unnecessary degree of vitriol toward anyone associated with the right. I think the former is plainly true, and though the latter is obviously subjective (and I'm not up to debating the truth of it), it's pretty far from "casting the whole forum as a vast leftwing groupmind out to shut down the voices of all rightists" or "crying about repression". In fact those statements are probably a pretty good example of the kind of excessive hyperbole he was referring to.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Eldar, Cool Hand said he thinks political discussions at the FF are skewed to the left and that many people here express an unnecessary degree of vitriol toward anyone associated with the right.

Agreed, and it makes me sad. Vitriol sucks.

[Godless Dave]

I don't express vitriol towards people associated with the right. A few posters do, and I think we all know who they are and they are not representative of FF as a whole.

I do heap vitrol on anyone who expresses support for the administration of George W. Bush. They deserve it.

Am I intellectually or morally superior to conservative citizens as a whole? No. Are Democratic politicians superior to Republican politicians? Hardly. Am I intellectually and morally superior to George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and those who work for them? Hell yes.

[Cool Hand]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Eldar, Cool Hand said he thinks political discussions at the FF are skewed to the left and that many people here express an unnecessary degree of vitriol toward anyone associated with the right. I think the former is plainly true, and though the latter is obviously subjective (and I'm not up to debating the truth of it), it's pretty far from "casting the whole forum as a vast leftwing groupmind out to shut down the voices of all rightists" or "crying about repression". In fact those statements are probably a pretty good example of the kind of excessive hyperbole he was referring to.

That's indeed what I meant, and a very fair summary of my intent. It is excessive hyperbole that so often masquerades as commentary here, and too much of it does tend to be knee-jerk and less than critical. That does not mean everyone here, or even most here, subscribes to some sort of political groupthink. I think it is fair to say that probably some posters here do, however, and it's a real shame that they get a pass, but virturally any poster with leanings to the right does not. They tend to get put through the wringer, or at least have excessively hostile demands to justify themselves put upon them.

I'm hardly crying. I do lament that viewpoints other than those which are likely to be received with "you got that right" type endorsements are not only crowded out, but are likely deterred from being posted at all. For but one trivial example, you might note that I have posted very little in the politics section since all that ugliness over the election took place here almost a year ago now.

Thoughtful posters who were there at the time to witness it might take a moment to ponder why that might be. Do you think it is because posters like me might be thin-skinned, or perhaps we don't enjoyed being dog-piled in a game of smear the queer?

CH

[Godless Dave]

I can understand why you might be put off by vitriol. But I don't understand why you brought it up in this thread. The OP containted no vitriol, just an accurate portrayal of a known dumbass.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

But I don't understand why you brought it up in this thread.

Neither do I. I would welcome conservative opinion around here, as long as it rises above the level of "Oh it must be so nice to be perfect like you."

[wei yau]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Eldar, Cool Hand said he thinks political discussions at the FF are skewed to the left and that many people here express an unnecessary degree of vitriol toward anyone associated with the right. I think the former is plainly true, and though the latter is obviously subjective (and I'm not up to debating the truth of it), it's pretty far from "casting the whole forum as a vast leftwing groupmind out to shut down the voices of all rightists" or "crying about repression". In fact those statements are probably a pretty good example of the kind of excessive hyperbole he was referring to.

I'd say that those statements are as excessive as delcaring that the FF has a hostile atmosphere to those with dissenting opinions. Are certain posters vitriolic towards the Right. Sure. But, then again, certain posters are real bitches toward other posters or newbies. Just as I would not claim that the FF is hostile toward newbies, I do not agree that the FF is hostile towards minority opinions.

While there may be evidence of hostility towards the Right in other threads, I find scant evidence of such in this particular thread. Cool Hand, himself, agreed that Clutch Munny and lisarea had what he considered to be "good" posts. Yet, those were not the ones he responded to, instead he chose to respond to what he saw as vitriolic posts and thereby continued the very tone of discussion he dislikes.

If "ignore" is the advice to be given to those who feel harassed, then should it not be equally applicable in this case? Isn't it somewhat incumbent upon the individual poster to remedy the situation by elevating the conversation instead of becoming mirerd in that which they dislike?

Holding a minority opinion does suck, it sucks here on the FF as much it does in real life. Holding a minority opinion does require being more thick-skinned and being the bigger person. It's a tough thing to do, but necessary if you feel strongly about your opinion.

I can understand the need to see other posters support your opinion or even castigate the more vitriolic posters on your behalf. But, that doesn't happen in real life, nor will it happen here.

[wei yau]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

That's indeed what I meant, and a very fair summary of my intent.

I certainly could have chosen my words more carefully. I apologize if I mischaracterized your statements. While the language may be hyperbolic, I stand by the idea that the FF is decidedly not hostile towards minority opinions.

It is excessive hyperbole that so often masquerades as commentary here, and too much of it does tend to be knee-jerk and less than critical. That does not mean everyone here, or even most here, subscribes to some sort of political groupthink. I think it is fair to say that probably some posters here do, however, and it's a real shame that they get a pass, but virturally any poster with leanings to the right does not. They tend to get put through the wringer, or at least have excessively hostile demands to justify themselves put upon them.

I stay out of the political threads, generally. So, I don't know if anyone has expressed a reasoned and critical conservative opinion.

And, of course, some posters may be jerks. Quite vocal ones when it comes to politics, but since you can't do anything about what they say, I'd recommend doing something about what you say. Ignore them, address the ones who you consider thoughtful and raise the tone of conversation to something more akin to what you are looking for.

I'm hardly crying. I do lament that viewpoints other than those which are likely to be received with "you got that right" type endorsements are not only crowded out, but are likely deterred from being posted at all.

As I said to vm, being of the minority opinion does suck. You have to work harder. You have to roll with the punches. You have to shout to be heard. This is true both outside and inside the FF.

I recall attempting to engage you in a political discussion along the lines of what you are seeking. You demurred, as is your right, but if no effort is made to change the tone of political conversation here, then how will it ever be changed?

For but one trivial example, you might note that I have posted very little in the politics section since all that ugliness over the election took place here almost a year ago now.

As I said, I stay out of politics for the most part. Not that I don't have strongly held opinions, not that they are necessarily always in line with the majority opinion. So, I've no clear picture of your actual political opinion, other than you feel it is the minority opinion here.

Thoughtful posters who were there at the time to witness it might take a moment to ponder why that might be. Do you think it is because posters like me might be thin-skinned, or perhaps we don't enjoyed being dog-piled in a game of smear the queer?

Eh. Doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, right? Could be a little of both, yes?

[Cool Hand]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

I can understand why you might be put off by vitriol. But I don't understand why you brought it up in this thread. The OP containted no vitriol, just an accurate portrayal of a known dumbass.

You see no vitriol in the OP, Godless Dave? My, I think perhaps your bias has given you a blind spot.

From the OP:

Karen Hughes is Bush's undersecretary of state for public diplomacy. She's also a nasty ol' Rebitchlifuck heffa and all-around pig-eyed sack of shit.

(emphasis mine, just in case you couldn't see it)


Also from the OP:

There are only two explanations for this lunacy, both of which are very bad for Hughes. First, she might simply be a bedwetting idiot who actually believes that "our Constitution cites 'one nation under God.'" In that event, she's too stupid and/or misinformed to hold public office and should resign forthwith.

(emphasis mine again)

I'll be charitable and allow that many of the negative opinions and epithets expressed in the OP are simply of the common type to be found in op-ed political pieces. The parts in bold are not, nor do they reflect any critical thinking on the part of the speaker.

It's not that someone expresses those kinds of opinions here. That I don't have such a problem with. It's that nearly everyone at FF allows that kind of bullshit to pass without criticism or comment, except for an "attaboy" or an "attagirl" blackslap to the poster. I rarely look into the politics forum here much anymore, and I just happened upon this thread randomly. That's why I picked it. It's remarkable to me that such a random thread contains such knee-jerk nastiness in it.

That's one factor among others which contributes to an atmosphere that is unwelcoming to dissent. It is but one of the factors which keeps political commentary which strays very far from the accepted left-leaning mainstream here at FF from being expressed more frequently than it is. It's not the only factor, but it's one of them.

Please re-read the OP and tell me again that it doesn't have any vitriol in it.

CH

[Dingfod]

I thought you meant vitriol toward you or other conservative members of FF. Hmmmph! I guess we "liberals" get no break even though Billary bashing went on full bore for 8 years and actually continues to this day.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Eldar, Cool Hand said he thinks political discussions at the FF are skewed to the left and that many people here express an unnecessary degree of vitriol toward anyone associated with the right. I think the former is plainly true...

I don't get that. I think "centrist" is much more accurate. That is, some of the most trenchant anti-Bush and anti-Republican (two very different things in itself) posting comes from people who express some sympathy for libertarianism or full-on conservatism, while I've seen virtually nothing in the way of defense for overtly leftist thinking.

Cool Hand's claim seems to presume, in just the way that filthy running-dog imperialists always try to -- oh, sorry, scratch that -- that "anti-Bush administration" amounts to "left". This is a grossly implausible suggestion. Let's see positive evidence of an actual left bias in all, most, or even many of the posters here. Otherwise, "anti-Bushite" means anti-Bushite. Full stop.

[viscousmemories]

See, this is why I should just avoid political discussions entirely. Even when I do my level best to make what I think is the most self-evident, vanilla observation possible I run into someone who vehemently disagrees. I think I'll stick to blathering incoherently about philosophy, where I can be courteously ignored.

[SharonDee]

vm, I think I love you.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

You see no vitriol in the OP, Godless Dave? My, I think perhaps your bias has given you a blind spot.

From the OP:

(emphasis mine, just in case you couldn't see it)


Also from the OP:

(emphasis mine again)

I'll be charitable and allow that many of the negative opinions and epithets expressed in the OP are simply of the common type to be found in op-ed political pieces. The parts in bold are not, nor do they reflect any critical thinking on the part of the speaker.

It's not that someone expresses those kinds of opinions here. That I don't have such a problem with. It's that nearly everyone at FF allows that kind of bullshit to pass without criticism or comment, except for an "attaboy" or an "attagirl" blackslap to the poster. I rarely look into the politics forum here much anymore, and I just happened upon this thread randomly. That's why I picked it. It's remarkable to me that such a random thread contains such knee-jerk nastiness in it.

That's one factor among others which contributes to an atmosphere that is unwelcoming to dissent. It is but one of the factors which keeps political commentary which strays very far from the accepted left-leaning mainstream here at FF from being expressed more frequently than it is. It's not the only factor, but it's one of them.

Please re-read the OP and tell me again that it doesn't have any vitriol in it.

CH

I see no vitriol directed towards conservatives. I see insults directed towards one person who, by her actions over the years, has earned it in spades. Why do you care what anyone says about Karen Hughes? It's like getting upset at people who criticize Andrew Dice Clay.

I oppose vitriol being thrown around willy-nilly. But every single member of the Bush administration deserves vitriol for continuing to work for that scumbag.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by SharonDee

vm, I think I love you.

So is it my political ignorance or incoherent philosophizing that won your heart?

To clarify: I think Clutch makes two very good points. The explicit one that anti-Bush doesn't equal 'leftist' and the implicit one that there are probably as many different perceptions of the 'tone' of political discourse here as there are commentators. I meant to reserve my own opinion in the interest of preserving my sanity, but obviously failed.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

(emphasis mine again)

I'll be charitable and allow that many of the negative opinions and epithets expressed in the OP are simply of the common type to be found in op-ed political pieces. The parts in bold are not, nor do they reflect any critical thinking on the part of the speaker.

Actually, I can assure you that they do. Now, they may not cite that critical thinking, but they are absolutely based on a foundation of reasoned and educated opinion.

I can assure you those are not kneejerk reactions or the product of some kind of party-line talking points.

Vitriolic? Yes. Righteous outrage? Yes. Uninformed and kneejerk? Absolutely not.

I do recognize that you don't really have any way of knowing what sort of reasoning is behind the outrage, but to assume that there simply is none is presumptuous.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

It's like getting upset at people who criticize Andrew Dice Clay.

What ABOUT Andrew Dice Clay?

[Dingfod]

Yeah, don't go picking on the Dice-Man.

[godfry n. glad]

If Cool Hand wishes to engage in measured political discussion, he should refrain from tossing out provocative statements about other posters, like this one, from his first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by Cool Hand

Godfry, why do you hate our country so much? You seem to miss few opportunities to bash it.

CH

This presumes, off-hand and in a highly offensive manner, that anyone who criticizes the current administration and its actions is an "America-hater". It is patently and obviously erroneous.

This kind of a statement is designed to elict angry responses. Cool Hand needs to take responsibility for his own commentary, instead of provoking others and then whining about the level of vitriol he elicts through his own stupidity. He brought it all down on his own head with his own actions.

I will not apologize for any vitriol I've vented in this thread until such time that Cool Hand offers up a public apology for his provocation.

[wei yau]

Originally Posted by SharonDee

vm, I think I love you.

So, what are you so afraid of?