Words You Hate

[godfry n. glad]

As for me, I enjoy your forays into the weeds...

godfry

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by wade-w

Whether the suppositions are acknowledged in advance or not has no bearing on the fact that they still precede the argument.

Correctamundo!!

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by peer

If you read 'preheat' as heating prior to the event (the event here is food being placed into the oven), as opposed to heating after, or during the event (which presumably is something to be avoided) then perhaps the term would seem less redundant?

Nope, not in the slightest. Before I put the food in, I'm heating the oven. Then, the oven is heated. After I turn the oven off, it is unheated.

Notice the lack of "pre" in the preceeding paragraph (and no, the "pre" in "preceeding" isn't redundant. )

As mentioned above, "preheating" indicates that prior to the event, you are heating the oven to 365 degrees. ''Heating the oven" doesnt do any event-referencing.

And it's totally irrelevant that "heating the oven" isn't referencing another event. If you're heating the oven, then it isn't heated yet.

Still no "pre" necessary. Jesus titty-fucking Christ, I hope "prenecessary" isn't a word.

[copiae]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Nope, not in the slightest. Before I put the food in, I'm heating the oven. Then, the oven is heated. After I turn the oven off, it is unheated.

Notice the lack of "pre" in the preceeding paragraph (and no, the "pre" in "preceeding" isn't redundant. )

Hey,

If there is an implicit assumption made that food will never go into an oven that is not 'heated' - i.e. while the oven is heating, then I can see your point. Otherwise -

By definition, you are preheating the oven: You are heating the oven prior to placing food in it. You are not heating an oven that already contains food, and nor are you heating an oven whilst placing food in it.


Regretfully, reality beckons, so this'll be my last post for either about 8, or 20, hours.

[godfry n. glad]

How about "presume"?

I mean, there's already "assume"? How is "presume" different?

Can we assume without being presumptuous? Or not?

godfry

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by peer

If there is an implicit assumption made that food will never go into an oven that is not 'heated' - i.e. while the oven is heating, then I can see your point. Otherwise -

By definition, you are preheating the oven: You are heating the oven prior to placing food in it. You are not heating an oven that already contains food, and nor are you heating an oven whilst placing food in it.

Whether food is going into the oven is irrelevant. When the oven goes from room temperature to whatever temperature you're setting it to, you're heating the oven. Then the oven is heated. Once the oven is heated, you can place food, a car battery, or a dead muskrat in there for all I care. It doesn't change the redundancy of "preheat" in the slightest.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

How about "presume"?

I mean, there's already "assume"? How is "presume" different?

Can we assume without being presumptuous? Or not?

godfry

Good question. A presumption is a special kind of assumption--an assumption made about something or someone that is questionable, at best. So, I don't think that "presume" is redundant for the same kind of reason that "prejudge" isn't redundant.

[livius drusus]

1259

[D. Scarlatti]

Not a word but a phrase: "On the ground," as in journalists, soldiers, whatever. Stop already.

[copiae]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Whether food is going into the oven is irrelevant. When the oven goes from room temperature to whatever temperature you're setting it to, you're heating the oven. Then the oven is heated.

Hey,

Obviously this going nowhere fast, so I'll try one last time. If you still don't see my point, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. =)


When the oven is being heated, the food is in three possible states:

1) it is in the oven.

2) it is not in the oven.

3) it is being entered into the oven.

If preheating occurs, then only 2) is a valid state. If heating occurs, then 1), 2) & 3) are valid states.

Once the oven is heated, you can place food, a car battery, or a dead muskrat in there for all I care. It doesn't change the redundancy of "preheat" in the slightest.

... Why 'Once'? Presumably, you can stick stuff in while the oven is heating? After all, we arent preheating here or anything...

[viscousmemories]

Well through this discussion I have come to believe that Goliath is right. Preheating is redundant. Cooking instructions could just as well be:

1. Heat the oven to 350 degrees
2. Put the food in

instead of

1. Preheat the oven to 350 degrees
2. Put the food in

However

I submit that the redundancy is intentional and purposeful in the same way (as GW pointed out) computer RAM is redundant. It's a failsafe. A way of ensuring that the person reading the instructions is very clear that the heating is to be done prior to putting the food in the oven.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by peer

When the oven is being heated, the food is in three possible states:

1) it is in the oven.

2) it is not in the oven.

3) it is being entered into the oven.

If preheating occurs, then only 2) is a valid state. If heating occurs, then 1), 2) & 3) are valid states.

Again, you're wrong. If you are heating the oven, then it isn't heated yet. Therefore options 1 and 3 don't make sense unless you wish to incorrectly cook whatever it is that you intend to cook.

[JoeP]

I am not going to get involved in this discussion
As well as redundancy, I think the phrase "preheat the oven" arises from transference from "heat the food". That's the fundamental step and the cook abbreviates it to "heat". Anything before this is therefore "preheat", but there's no object, nothing is preheated. "Preheat the food" is obviously wrong, but "preheat the oven" is not obviously wrong enough to stop people saying it.

Many many grammatically illogical expressions arise from multiple- or mis-applications of rules which may individually be fine and useful. Consider "ice tea" - it's not tea made with ice, it's an elision of the d in "iced tea" which is hardly if at all pronounced. This is because "ice tea" is not a phrase I hate.

"delegate" "compulsory" "enabler" "framework"

[Nil Desperandum]

Dual-redundancy.
Quad-redundancy.

When you troubleshoot jet fighters, these words become a part of your every-day language.
Ok, not EVERY DAY, but you read it quite a bit in the description of parts.
Quad-redundant flight-controls is a good thing.

Btw, I love how absolutely no thread on this forum can go two pages without a serious digression and thread-derailment.

Since I cannot hate anything, I'll post words I dislike.

"X" replacing "sk" or "sks" in ANY WORD. I find this common in African-Americans and their use of the English language. I have yet to see anyone else speak in such a manner, and it really pisses me off.

Ghetto language. "Get my hair did." <~~ Fucking atrocity. Where did these people grow up!?

The misuse of "it's", as if almost everything is owned by something else. STOP USING THE POSSESSIVE, YOU FUCKTARD.

Your/you're mispellings.

Expedient is a stupid word.

You know, the military is full of really stupid shit.

Expeditiously.
Expeditionary.
Expedite.

We sure expedite, expeditiously, our Expeditionary Air Forces.

"Hurry up and wait." It isn't official Air Force doctrine for nothing.

Let's see, what else?

(HORRIBLE ASIDE: <~~~ Is that a USED TAMPON swinging from her mouth!? ARGH1@#$!#@ )

Ok, I'm back. :

That is all.

[livius drusus]

Good God, man; I certainly hope not. It's PMS, after all, so it just wouldn't make any sense.

[Ymir's blood]

Originally Posted by Nil Desperandum

The misuse of "it's", as if almost everything is owned by something else. STOP USING THE POSSESSIVE, YOU FUCKTARD.

Actually, it's isn't the possessive form of it but rather the contraction of it is or it has. The possessive form of it is its (no apostrophe).

[wade-w]

Redundancy in engineering is a very good thing; I'd even go so far as to call it necessary in systems where a catastrophic failure would usually result in a loss of lives. That does not in any way imply that redundancy in language is also a good thing. Of course, there are times when a writer may wish to use a redundancy on purpose to make some point or other. To me, this is an aesthetic issue, and I think vm's point about "preheat" is a valid one. But then, isn't this entire thread about aesthetics when all is said and done?

Oh, and nil, "hurry up and wait" is by no means confined to the Chair Force. I think it's standard doctrine in all branches of the military.

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally Posted by Ymir's blood

Actually, it's isn't the possessive form of it but rather the contraction of it is or it has. The possessive form of it is its (no apostrophe).

I was waiting for someone to correct me on that. Ha ha ha! I'm using teh 1|\|t3r|\|37!#@$!@

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Good God, man; I certainly hope not. It's PMS, after all, so it just wouldn't make any sense.

That P stands for Pre- or Post-, so my original disgust still stands.

[copiae]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Again, you're wrong. If you are heating the oven, then it isn't heated yet. Therefore options 1 and 3 don't make sense unless you wish to incorrectly cook whatever it is that you intend to cook.

Hey,


Unless, of course, certain dishes specifically require being placed into an oven while its heating up, and not when it heats up. Also, seeing as cooking manuals and thier ilk are usually written so that they can be used by a broad range of people, the usage of 'preheat' also significantly reduces this ambiguity to those that don't know much about cooking.


Cheers,

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by peer

Unless, of course, certain dishes specifically require being placed into an oven while its heating up, and not when it heats up. Also, seeing as cooking manuals and thier ilk are usually written so that they can be used by a broad range of people, the usage of 'preheat' also significantly reduces this ambiguity to those that don't know much about cooking.


Cheers,

I didn't know there were any dishes that required being in the oven while the oven is heating. Regardless, once the oven is done heating, it's heated.

[Vicar Philip]

I hate these three words in this particular order:
Make no mistake
That phrase is usually followed by some testosterone laden diatribe against "terra" and "the forces of evil."

I also hate these three words in this particular order:
Give it to God
An annoying woman in the church I used to attend would invoke that mantra whenever she spoke of something painful. Here's a news flash: give it to YOURSELF and you'll get something accomplished!

[wade-w]

Originally Posted by Vicar Philip

I also hate these three words in this particular order:
Give it to God

Since a major part of this thread is about nitpicking, I will indulge myself. That's four words, not three.

[Socratoad]

"Mu pappy said"
The next mock cracker that utters those three words in "mu" presence is gonna find his ass between his shoulder blades.

Is there anything more aggravating than hearing some 40- 50ish vacant-faced knuckle-dragger without any observable forehead muttering those three grating words.