race, the n word, cracker historical context and hate crimes

[Dingfod]

I wasn't trying to say what poor whites suffer is in any way comparable to that of poor blacks, only to point out that terms of derision toward poor whites are not rare at all. I beg to differ that they are not seen as dangerous and criminals. People see an unkempt unshaven man with a bad haircut and make all sorts of assumptions about them being wife-beaters or worse. I don't know how many times I've heard the neighborhood a mile or so away from my house referred to as the meth capital of Oklahoma, or heard something like "Only criminals and drugged out white trash live in Blahville", or "You don't really drive through there, do you?" There aren't any minorities at all in this village that lies on my road to my workplace, only poor people, some working poor, some just dirt poor. Some probably are criminals and on drugs, but I'd say the vast majority of them are law abiding citizens, their only problem is not having much of a say as to where they live because of economic circumstance.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by warrenly

I beg to differ that they are not seen as dangerous and criminals.

Of course individuals can be seen as dangerous based on class prejudice and some white neighborhoods can be seen as criminally dangerous. The point I was trying to make is that terms like "poor white trash" do not pathologize a race and are thus not even on the same scale as anti-black racial slurs.

The "meth capital" reputation is an insulting generalization for the honest working poor in that neighborhood, but that doesn't get extrapolated into de facto assumptions of criminality based on white skin, just as idiotic college open container riots are never characterized as race riots even though they are massively, overwhelmingly white.

How many of those working poor, for instance, get arrested a couple of times a year for being in the wrong neighborhood? I'll wager exactly none of them have. Class bias and its attendant slurs just don't operate on the same principles that racial slurs against black people do.

Oh, and what Shake said.

[Dingfod]

Granted.

[Beth]

Ok, I agree that the minority groups do feel the oppression of the majority group. I am well aware of racism and rather agree with the article from Tim Wise that Liv posted. I just do not put up with it from any side.

I have experienced slurs from black girls in a predominately black school. I was transferred there after attending another predominately black school in the projects where I had tons of black friends, the girls would take turns plaiting my blonde hair, we would cut up, I would marvel at their hair and at how cool it was that it would just stay in place in a braid with no need of a holder...the hair thing was the only asthetic difference we took note in and we loved that difference. Other than that, we were just giggling girlfriends. (I might also add that before this school, I had only known a few other black girls, one in my neighborhood, and a few from school.)

When I transferred to this other school, it was hell from the start. In the locker room, on my first day, I was pinned by a group of black girls using every slur that I imagine can be used for a white girl. They threatened me, tripped me, and told me that they were gonna push me down the stairs one day if I did not change my stuck-up honkey attitude. This went on constantly. In the halls, I would be tripped by some black girl for being a honkey, I would have black boys threaten me with knives, or until I became the resource officer's assistant. I, not once, adopted a racist attitude, never decided that my oppression and the hatred I was dealing with justified the way my family spoke of the black people and it helped me understand some of the hatred black people do experience from whites.

My son is now in a predominately black middle school, he was given a concussion by a black boy a few weeks ago because my son is a cracker. My son tried to avoid the boy, to be the better person and sit at his table and behave and the kid decided that he would hit my son in the back of the head. So after this racially motivated incident that the school ignored (until I threatened filing complaint with the school board), I decided that when another child a called my son a cracker with a hateful and racist tone that I would make sure the offender was punished. Especially because of the last incident and since it is a violation of the hate crimes act in Florida and that is a punishable offence by the school board, I felt I should not just ignore the racism just because my son was white.

I understand the vileness of the 'n' word. I never say that word. I did once as a child until someone explained to me the meaning of it. I also accept when people call me a cracker, although I am not one, because it is basically like calling a northerner a Yank. Just a term, no really bad connotations and I usually make some sort of joke. I accept black people calling me a cracker or using 'you crackers' as long as there is not a hateful implication there and yes, I can tell the differences.

I think that we must say enough.

Now days, I rarely face any sort of racism.I smile widely to both blacks and whites or just ignore them equally. I am kind and polite and usually feel at ease in black neighborhoods (except for one area). I can understand that most in racial minority groups are not honestly able to say that they rarely continue to face racism. Because of this, I accept that the "n" word has a history of oppression and really is not exactly the same as cracker. But, to me, both words can be used in hate and to reopen racial divides that we are trying to mend through education down here. So these inciting words should not be tolerated.

I think that the racial tensions in this nation will not ease until the south no longer has those alive that remember being oppressed by the law or those who remember being superiors to those oppressed. I do not think that until those who felt what it was like to be forced to stand "n" the back of the bus or to use a different toilet or to use a different water fountain or to be refused service simply because their skin was a different color, or those who felt the empowerment of suppressing that group and relishing the good ole days when the whites were legally superior to the inferior black man pass into the annuls of history that any racial divides will truly be bridged.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Of course individuals can be seen as dangerous based on class prejudice and some white neighborhoods can be seen as criminally dangerous. The point I was trying to make is that terms like "poor white trash" do not pathologize a race and are thus not even on the same scale as anti-black racial slurs.

The "meth capital" reputation is an insulting generalization for the honest working poor in that neighborhood, but that doesn't get extrapolated into de facto assumptions of criminality based on white skin, just as idiotic college open container riots are never characterized as race riots even though they are massively, overwhelmingly white.

How many of those working poor, for instance, get arrested a couple of times a year for being in the wrong neighborhood? I'll wager exactly none of them have. Class bias and its attendant slurs just don't operate on the same principles that racial slurs against black people do.

Oh, and what Shake said.

blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime, and I am perfectly willing to accept that it is almost certianly because of economic reasons.

and while I probably cant speak for others, I rarely feal uncomfortable in any environment. I think that certain cultural identifiers are probably what people key off of more than simply skin color. The hiphop look if you will. I just dont think that people are going to fear a middle age black man in a suit.

I think the mixture of gangsta rap with its glorification of crime and violence, the fact that blacks are more likely to commit crime and the fact that many black youth's embrace the thug look is as much responsible for the stereotyping as the evil white man.

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime, and I am perfectly willing to accept that it is almost certianly because of economic reasons.

It's certainly true that blacks earn much less, on average, than do whites. I think it's fair to point out that some of this disparity is due to poor attitudes within the black community, sadly. Bill Cosby got a lot of grief for pointing this out, but he had a legitimate point.

I've had more than one African-American student complain to me that their peers criticize them for "acting white" if they spend too much time studying.



The question is: Why the prevalence of this negative attitude toward academic achievement (which is doubtless partially responsible for the economic disparity)? I suspect a lot of blacks feel the system's set up against them anyway and they're doomed to fail regardless, so there's no point in fighting it. A self-defeating attitude if there ever was one, sadly.

[Beth]

The question is: Why the prevalence of this negative attitude toward academic achievement (which is doubtless partially responsible for the economic disparity)? I suspect a lot of blacks feel the system's set up against them anyway and they're doomed to fail regardless, so there's no point in fighting it. A self-defeating attitude if there ever was one, sadly.

Many white poor aknowledge 'the man' also with distain. I do think they feel that one must not become part of the oppressor. Fortunately, also, there are many good mothers out there that drill into their kids that an education is the only hope to escape the cycle of poverty.

So perhaps there is a cultural myth exists that educating oneself and obtaining a higher social status is the equivilant of buying into a corrupt system.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

The question is: Why the prevalence of this negative attitude toward academic achievement (which is doubtless partially responsible for the economic disparity)? I suspect a lot of blacks feel the system's set up against them anyway and they're doomed to fail regardless, so there's no point in fighting it. A self-defeating attitude if there ever was one, sadly.

From Mr. Wise again: Not-So-Little White Lies: Education and the Myth of Black Anti-Intellectualism.

Since that time, there have been any number of studies on black youth attitudes towards education, and while there are surely some such youth who sadly de-emphasize scholarly pursuits, there is little or no evidence that this phenomenon is unique to the black community. A recent opinion poll of black youth, ages 11-17, found that the biggest hope for these youth was to go to college, and additional studies have found that black youth value academic success every bit as much as white students and often place an even higher priority on educational achievement than whites.

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

From Mr. Wise again: Not-So-Little White Lies: Education and the Myth of Black Anti-Intellectualism.

Ah, I stand corrected. I have had black students complain that they're criticized by their peers for "acting white" if they study too much, but maybe that's as much rationalization as it is a real phenomenon. And goodness knows -- it's not like I don't see plenty of white students who would much rather spend their evenings playing Nintendo than hitting the books.

Originally written by Tim Wise:

Cherished myths die hard, especially when those myths serve the interests of the more powerful members of a society at the expense of the less powerful. For generations, slaveowners ignored their chattels’ humanity, to say nothing of their desire for freedom, even coming up with a name for the presumed mental illness that “explained” the urge on the part of their property to run away. Drapetomania, it was called: a powerful disorder that afflicted the brains of slaves, rendering them incapable of recognizing how good they had it.

This attitude has by no means died out entirely. I once had a conversation with a very well-educated woman in North Carolina who stoutly insisted that blacks had been better off under slavery. She insisted that all the tales of beatings, rape, mutilation, and murder were clearly nonsense -- since it was "obviously" in the best interest of the slave-owner to take good care of his property.

Apparently, she wholeheartedly believed the propaganda about the happy slaves singing joyfully all day long as they worked, glad to be here in America, rather than back in nasty old Africa.

I'd write this off as an isolated incident except for the fact that when I was living in North Carolina, I used to see "Letters to the Editor" in the local newspapers claiming just that every now and again -- namely that blacks were better off under slavery than they are now. There was something of a fuss (this would be about 10 years ago now) when a local community college hired someone to teach a history course, and he taught that slavery was a benign institution, and that the Emancipation was one of the worst things that could have happened to African-Americans. Needless to say, a lot of people were rather upset by this.

Cheers,

Michael

[Beth]

This attitude has by no means died out entirely. I once had a conversation with a very well-educated woman in North Carolina who stoutly insisted that blacks had been better off under slavery. She insisted that all the tales of beatings, rape, mutilation, and murder were clearly nonsense -- since it was "obviously" in the best interest of the slave-owner to take good care of his property.

Apparently, she wholeheartedly believed the propaganda about the happy slaves singing joyfully all day long as they worked, glad to be here in America, rather than back in nasty old Africa.

I'd write this off as an isolated incident except for the fact that when I was living in North Carolina, I used to see "Letters to the Editor" in the local newspapers claiming just that every now and again -- namely that blacks were better off under slavery than they are now. There was something of a fuss (this would be about 10 years ago now) when a local community college hired someone to teach a history course, and he taught that slavery was a benign institution, and that the Emancipation was one of the worst things that could have happened to African-Americans. Needless to say, a lot of people were rather upset by this.

Wow. What an ignorant view. I do not think I've ever heard anyone claim they were better off in slavery, although I have heard the argument that the whites were better off.

To the education thing. ...Do you think that those students are chided in the same manner for "acting white" as a white student might be chided for being a bookworm, an egghead, or a geek?

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

That's true, but I also think blacks are arrested a disproportianate amount of the time and receive disproportionate sentences.

And where I live some cops do arrest black people for no reason. "He fit the description" is good enough. A black man robs a convenience store -- call goes out on the radio with a description of a black man of a certain height -- certain cops arrest the first black man they see about that height.

Black people get pulled over for minor violations like having an air freshener hanging from their rear-view mirror far more often than white people.

When a white person in a trashy car gets pulled over, how likely is it that he will be ordered to lie face-down on the ground while the cops aim guns at him?

The head of the Minneapolis Civil Rights Commission, a black man, was questioned by police who were conducting an investigation. The fact that he was questioned was not in itself alarming. The fact that they asked him 6 times who his Mercedes really belonged to - after he had produced ID and proof of title to the car - was.

There was a case here a few years ago where a woman called 911 because two American Indians were passed out on her front step. She expected them to send an ambulance. Instead, the police came and loaded the men into the trunk of their car, closed it, and drove them to detox.

Originally Posted by Beth

I think that the racial tensions in this nation will not ease until the south no longer has those alive that remember being oppressed by the law or those who remember being superiors to those oppressed.

It's not just the south. Duluth, Minnesota had a lynching in the 30s. There was, and still is, plenty of oppression in the north.

[Beth]

Sorry, I think I was using the South as an example because of the slavery that once existed here.

[Bella]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

Duluth, Minnesota had a lynching in the 30s.

Yeah, and now they're building a monument .

To add to the 'Oreo' discussion: a 'banana' is an Asian-American - yellow on the outside and white on the inside.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by Bree

Yeah, and now they're building a monument

I'm pretty sure the intent of the monument is to make sure we remember that lynching occurred, not to condone or celebrate it.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

It's not just the south. Duluth, Minnesota had a lynching in the 30s. There was, and still is, plenty of oppression in the north.

Yep... And my state, Oregon, had the second largest KKK membership (Indiana was first) in the 1920's. (There were next to no blacks in the state at the time. Their target here was Asians and Roman Catholics.)

godfry

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime, and I am perfectly willing to accept that it is almost certianly because of economic reasons.

You don't actually know that, though. All you know is that black people are arrested and convicted for a disproportionate amount of crime. Given the classist and racist mechanics of the drug war - the emphasis on street busts, the constant patrolling of "at risk" neighborhoods while completely ignoring toney neighborhoods despite the large number of rich white people doing expensive drugs - there's no way of knowing if the disproportion reflects a genuine difference in criminal behavior.

and while I probably cant speak for others, I rarely feal uncomfortable in any environment. I think that certain cultural identifiers are probably what people key off of more than simply skin color. The hiphop look if you will. I just dont think that people are going to fear a middle age black man in a suit.

Do you have any evidence of that? Off the top of my head I would say statistics like those uncovered in the 1996 New Jersey racial profiling case that black drivers were 5 times more likely to be pulled over by state troppers than white people contradict the baggy jeans principle. You can't tell how someone is dressed when they're driving by you, but you can tell what color their skin is.

Incidentally, there is also no study at all to indicate that minority drivers commit a disproportionate number of traffic violations, and yet the Interim Report of the State Police Review Team Regarding Allegations of Racial Profiling found that 77.2% of consent searches involved black or Latino motorists. Consent searches, mind you, which means the troopers asked permission before searching and which not surprisingly means more often than not they don't find shit.

Here's a document with a collection of links on state profiling studies. I don't think you'll find that rap or couture have a thing to with it.

I think the mixture of gangsta rap with its glorification of crime and violence, the fact that blacks are more likely to commit crime and the fact that many black youth's embrace the thug look is as much responsible for the stereotyping as the evil white man.

You disappoint me, beyelzu. I never created any such "evil white man" chimera and I don't appreciate having my point (or Tim Wise's point) caricatured. If you have nothing to say about the article, fine, but your post doesn't even begin to rebut its arguments which are no more grounded in the instrinsic depravity of white people than they are that of black people.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

You disappoint me, beyelzu. I never created any such "evil white man" chimera and I don't appreciate having my point (or Tim Wise's point) caricatured. If you have nothing to say about the article, fine, but your post doesn't even begin to rebut its arguments which are no more grounded in the instrinsic depravity of white people than they are that of black people.

first,

allow me to apologize for the word choice. I couldnt think of a good phrase to use, obviously I chose poorly.

but, I will probably have to caricature Tim Wise's point anyway, as I feel that it is long on rhetoric and short on meaningful facts.

are there race problems in a america, most certainly.


hispanics only complete highschool 66.7 percent of the time and blacks only 82 percent of the time.

from http://nces.ed.gov/pubs99/1999082.pdf

there is definitely a problem, but I find arguments of institutional racism to be weak, because it seems to me that it is just saying, hey we dont know why this is so, so it must be racism.

In 1997, young adults living in families with incomes in the lowest 20 percent of all family incomes were nearly 7 times as likely as their peers from families in the top 20 percent of the income distribution to drop out of high school (table 1).

from the same site.

it seems very likely to me that income plays a large role in race dynamics in america