race, the n word, cracker historical context and hate crimes

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

The question is: Why the prevalence of this negative attitude toward academic achievement (which is doubtless partially responsible for the economic disparity)? I suspect a lot of blacks feel the system's set up against them anyway and they're doomed to fail regardless, so there's no point in fighting it. A self-defeating attitude if there ever was one, sadly.

From Mr. Wise again: Not-So-Little White Lies: Education and the Myth of Black Anti-Intellectualism.

Since that time, there have been any number of studies on black youth attitudes towards education, and while there are surely some such youth who sadly de-emphasize scholarly pursuits, there is little or no evidence that this phenomenon is unique to the black community. A recent opinion poll of black youth, ages 11-17, found that the biggest hope for these youth was to go to college, and additional studies have found that black youth value academic success every bit as much as white students and often place an even higher priority on educational achievement than whites.

[beyelzu]

First, racial violence is also a power whites have, so the power that might obtain in such a situation is hardly unique to non-whites, unlike the power to deny a bank loan for racial reasons, to "steer" certain homebuyers away from living in “nicer" neighborhoods, or to racially profile in terms of policing. Those are powers that can only be exercised by the more dominant group as a practical and systemic matter.

while I found almost the entire quoted article to be biased crap,

let's take this one paragraph because it is the worst of the lot.

I saw no proof for the allegations that blacks are denied loans based on race or that certain homebuyers are "steered" away from some neighborhoods.


the bank loan thing is pretty fucking cute in light of this

The Federal Reserve Board (FRB) plans to reverse a 25-year-old regulation known as "Regulation B" which prohibits banks from collecting racial, ethnic, gender, or religious data from loan applicants.

from http://www.adversity.net/special/banking_housing_01.htm
hell maybe he is talking about banks that arent part of the Federal Reserve system.

also, how can he have anything other than anecdotal evidence on the homebuyer's accusation.

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

From Mr. Wise again: Not-So-Little White Lies: Education and the Myth of Black Anti-Intellectualism.

Ah, I stand corrected. I have had black students complain that they're criticized by their peers for "acting white" if they study too much, but maybe that's as much rationalization as it is a real phenomenon. And goodness knows -- it's not like I don't see plenty of white students who would much rather spend their evenings playing Nintendo than hitting the books.

Originally written by Tim Wise:

Cherished myths die hard, especially when those myths serve the interests of the more powerful members of a society at the expense of the less powerful. For generations, slaveowners ignored their chattels’ humanity, to say nothing of their desire for freedom, even coming up with a name for the presumed mental illness that “explained” the urge on the part of their property to run away. Drapetomania, it was called: a powerful disorder that afflicted the brains of slaves, rendering them incapable of recognizing how good they had it.

This attitude has by no means died out entirely. I once had a conversation with a very well-educated woman in North Carolina who stoutly insisted that blacks had been better off under slavery. She insisted that all the tales of beatings, rape, mutilation, and murder were clearly nonsense -- since it was "obviously" in the best interest of the slave-owner to take good care of his property.

Apparently, she wholeheartedly believed the propaganda about the happy slaves singing joyfully all day long as they worked, glad to be here in America, rather than back in nasty old Africa.

I'd write this off as an isolated incident except for the fact that when I was living in North Carolina, I used to see "Letters to the Editor" in the local newspapers claiming just that every now and again -- namely that blacks were better off under slavery than they are now. There was something of a fuss (this would be about 10 years ago now) when a local community college hired someone to teach a history course, and he taught that slavery was a benign institution, and that the Emancipation was one of the worst things that could have happened to African-Americans. Needless to say, a lot of people were rather upset by this.

Cheers,

Michael

[Beth]

This attitude has by no means died out entirely. I once had a conversation with a very well-educated woman in North Carolina who stoutly insisted that blacks had been better off under slavery. She insisted that all the tales of beatings, rape, mutilation, and murder were clearly nonsense -- since it was "obviously" in the best interest of the slave-owner to take good care of his property.

Apparently, she wholeheartedly believed the propaganda about the happy slaves singing joyfully all day long as they worked, glad to be here in America, rather than back in nasty old Africa.

I'd write this off as an isolated incident except for the fact that when I was living in North Carolina, I used to see "Letters to the Editor" in the local newspapers claiming just that every now and again -- namely that blacks were better off under slavery than they are now. There was something of a fuss (this would be about 10 years ago now) when a local community college hired someone to teach a history course, and he taught that slavery was a benign institution, and that the Emancipation was one of the worst things that could have happened to African-Americans. Needless to say, a lot of people were rather upset by this.

Wow. What an ignorant view. I do not think I've ever heard anyone claim they were better off in slavery, although I have heard the argument that the whites were better off.

To the education thing. ...Do you think that those students are chided in the same manner for "acting white" as a white student might be chided for being a bookworm, an egghead, or a geek?

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by Beth

To the education thing. ...Do you think that those students are chided in the same manner for "acting white" as a white student might be chided for being a bookworm, an egghead, or a geek?

That's an interesting idea. My impression is that if somebody is criticized for "acting white" that's a rather more serious insult than being called an "egghead" or "geek," since the former has the implication of collaborating with oppressors. But I could certainly be wrong.

Anti-intellectualism is alive and well in the U.S. of A. That's for certain! I mean, look at our revered President, who makes no particular secret of his disdain for intellectual pursuits. Sadly, a lot of people consider that to be appealing.

Cheers,

Michael

[Dingfod]

Acting white? Don't they call that "oreo"? You know, dark on the outside, but white on the inside. Or is that something else?

[The Lone Ranger]

Yeah, I've heard that term used. An "oreo" is "black on the outside, but white on the inside."

[Beth]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

Yeah, I've heard that term used. An "oreo" is "black on the outside, but white on the inside."

Right, but I heard it termed for a white person who acts black.

It is also slang for a gay threesome...two black guys on the outside and a white guy sandwiched between

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

You disappoint me, beyelzu. I never created any such "evil white man" chimera and I don't appreciate having my point (or Tim Wise's point) caricatured. If you have nothing to say about the article, fine, but your post doesn't even begin to rebut its arguments which are no more grounded in the instrinsic depravity of white people than they are that of black people.

first,

allow me to apologize for the word choice. I couldnt think of a good phrase to use, obviously I chose poorly.

but, I will probably have to caricature Tim Wise's point anyway, as I feel that it is long on rhetoric and short on meaningful facts.

are there race problems in a america, most certainly.


hispanics only complete highschool 66.7 percent of the time and blacks only 82 percent of the time.

from http://nces.ed.gov/pubs99/1999082.pdf

there is definitely a problem, but I find arguments of institutional racism to be weak, because it seems to me that it is just saying, hey we dont know why this is so, so it must be racism.

In 1997, young adults living in families with incomes in the lowest 20 percent of all family incomes were nearly 7 times as likely as their peers from families in the top 20 percent of the income distribution to drop out of high school (table 1).

from the same site.

it seems very likely to me that income plays a large role in race dynamics in america

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

Yeah, I've heard that term used. An "oreo" is "black on the outside, but white on the inside."

around atlanta it is used evidently.

sam got called that alot in highschool and occassionaly at uga.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Acting white? Don't they call that "oreo"? You know, dark on the outside, but white on the inside. Or is that something else?

A common equivalent term here is coconut.

[Dingfod]

Would being called "oreo" be derisive enough to cause a person to lower their academic achievement level? Peer pressure is a strong influence.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

while I found almost the entire quoted article to be biased crap,

/me shrugs
You used Frontpage as a source. It's hard to get more biased than that. Besides, his putative bias doesn't seem like much of a reason not to respond to his arguments. Shouldn't we make a point of responding to bias?

I saw no proof for the allegations that blacks are denied loans based on race or that certain homebuyers are "steered" away from some neighborhoods.

True that, although I will say that those claims were tangential to his point about the difference between saying cracker and saying nigger.

In any case, for evidence of racial discrimination in lending, see FannieMae's Discrimination in Urban Credit Markets. It cites Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) reports which I suspect are Wise's sources as those stats are referred to frequently in the research I've done.

Indeed, the Federal Reserve Board's (the Fed's) recent report of the first set of aggregated data collected under the "new" HMDA (Canner et al. 1991) was widely interpreted as proof that housing credit discrimination is widespread and of major dimensions. Although the Fed cautioned that the observed rejection rates for blacks and Hispanics, which were much higher than those for whites and Asians, were not necessarily evidence of illegal discriminatory treatment of mortgage applicants, even the Fed could not refrain from observing that approval rates for low-income white applicants were higher than approval rates for high-income black applicants (Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council 1991; Knight 1991).

For evidence of "steering" and a vast panoply of other discriminatory practices in real estate, see this Syracuse University study which compares the data from the Housing Discrimination Studies of 1989 and 2000. The statistics parts are a bit above my head (Goliath? wade?), but the chunks of it in actual English make for some pretty interesting reading.

Our results show that black and Hispanic homebuyers are discriminated against because of brokers' prejudice, white customers' prejudice, and statistical discrimination. Although housing discrimination has significantly declined since 1989, we do not find a wane in discrimination motives. Regarding brokers' marketing behavior, our most striking results points [sic] to the existence of and an increasing trend in redlining (i.e., brokers withhold units in integrated neighborhoods from all homebuyers).

the bank loan thing is pretty fucking cute in light of this

from http://www.adversity.net/special/banking_housing_01.htm
hell maybe he is talking about banks that arent part of the Federal Reserve system.

Nope. Your source is just on rhetorical steroids, is all. Here's what's actually going on (emphasis mine):

The Board is now creating an exception that will allow creditors of non-mortgage credit to collect personal characteristics in a self-test for compliance with ECOA.

Originally Posted by beyelzu

also, how can he have anything other than anecdotal evidence on the homebuyer's accusation.

Probably a combination of anecdotal and statistical similar to that found in this Black Enterprise article.

[beyelzu]

interesting from the study that Tim Wise mentioned and that I have seen elsewhere.


44 percent of black fourth graders watch 6 hrs or more of tv a day

compared to only 15 percent of white students

[Petra]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

what I am amazed by is that you believed that they were all arrested for no reason.

you have to be incredibly naive.

police dont just cruise around arresting black people for no fucking reason.

in short I would like some proof that this assertion has anything at all to do with mainstream reality.

Two words: Tulia, Texas.

Many of those people are still sitting in jail.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

44 percent of black fourth graders watch 6 hrs or more of tv a day

compared to only 15 percent of white students

Some of the things that may contribute to that.

1) No safe place to play outside the home.

2) Home too small and crowded, no toys, tv is it.

3) Latchkey kids - tv is company for them and a distraction

4) No money to enjoy family outings with. TV is free entertainment.

I'm guessing, but I doubt I'm too far off.

[beyelzu]

one other thing, I searched nces and couldnt find statistics for other grade levels similar to the ones for fourthgraders,

has anyone seen anything like that.

and

Lunachick,

all of those are real possibilities I found the statistic to be incredibly interesting.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

one other thing, I searched nces and couldnt find statistics for other grade levels similar to the ones for fourthgraders,

has anyone seen anything like that.

and

Lunachick,

all of those are real possibilities I found the statistic to be incredibly interesting.

bump


I still have been unable to find any studies comparable to the one on fourthgraders, does anyone have anything?

[Bella]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

Duluth, Minnesota had a lynching in the 30s.

Yeah, and now they're building a monument .

To add to the 'Oreo' discussion: a 'banana' is an Asian-American - yellow on the outside and white on the inside.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by Bree

Yeah, and now they're building a monument

I'm pretty sure the intent of the monument is to make sure we remember that lynching occurred, not to condone or celebrate it.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

It's not just the south. Duluth, Minnesota had a lynching in the 30s. There was, and still is, plenty of oppression in the north.

Yep... And my state, Oregon, had the second largest KKK membership (Indiana was first) in the 1920's. (There were next to no blacks in the state at the time. Their target here was Asians and Roman Catholics.)

godfry