Just curious -

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by michael1111

i think im conservative. i tend to get lumped with liberals cuz im arty, but i believe in less govt. i believe that people need to rely less on handouts. i dont think that can happen with the way things are set up right now, but it could start. i guess im a libertarian...with an anarchist heart

michael

Do speak up then! I'm a libertarian leaning conservative who is here single-handedly battling the herd of foaming-at-the mouth looney lib wingnuts! It's kind of like Dawn of the Dead!

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

A definition. Any decent debate starts by defining terms. Do so.

Quit the crap! You are as interested in a "decent debate" as I am in listening to Tupac for 12 hours straight!

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by alphamale

Quit the crap! You are as interested in a "decent debate" as I am in listening to Tupac for 12 hours straight!

She likes decent debate as do I. You should try it, it's fun sometimes.

Actually, either get your terms together or maybe I'll start my own thread because this is interesting either way.

I am a Conservative politically. I'm voting for the Conservative Party of Canada in the near future as I did the last election, for the record.

I don't read or watch the News, just get what I accidentally run into. Other than that, if I want or feel I need other information, I go looking for it specifically from several different sources, hopefully conflicting so I can focus on details and technicalities, flaws and loopholes.

There's a start, hope it helps.

[Plant Woman]

[QUOTE=alphamale]

Originally Posted by Debbie T

To be a conservative means middle and left? You're brain damaged. You're too naive too know that "extreme" is an utterly meaningless slur term in the political sense, it's tossed out by people who are losing arguments or afraid to engage in them.

I am losing an argument here? LOL! First I didn't know answering a question was an argument. You asked, I answered. Too funny! Your answer is a winning argument? LOL! Oh please, the day you win an argument here will have to start with you beginning to understand what one is. I doubt anyone here is afraid of losing an argument to you, since so far you don't even know how to present an argument and back them up with something solid. For you to become a winner means a lot of growing up on your part and a lot less emotional outbursts. Name-calling, strawmen and mud slinging are not the means to winning an argument. Unless you do some major changes in your presentation, you are nothing more than a balloon with its opening stretched so tight it is squealing out a lot of hot air.

Thanks for the hardy laugh though.

[rigorist]

Originally Posted by alphamale

No, I meant is there anyone who doesn't get their news from See B.S., their worldview from Michael Moore, their history from Oliver Stone, and their aesthetic sensibility from rapcrap.

News: NPR and BBC
Worldview: John Steinbeck
History: Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
Aesthetics: The Velvet Underground

Can I join the conservative club?

[seebs]

I get my news mostly from The Economist. I loathe Michael Moore. I believe Oliver Stone to be a purveyor of pure fiction. I have voted Republican in the vast majority of the elections I've voted in. I am certainly a conservative.

What I'm not is a fake conservative who wants to be liberal with spending lives and money in the pursuit of social engineering projects that reflect the religious sensibilities of the pharisees. Rush Limbaugh is not a conservative; he is, as Al Franken so accurately notes, a big fat asshole. Bush is not a conservative, he's a pathetic warmonger who plays at conservatism to get votes.

The term "extreme" is not at all meaningless. Mao's communists were indeed extremists.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ms_ann_thrope

Well then, douchebag, I guess that must make me a conservative.

QFT

Seriously, there are a number of fiscal conservatives (note that I mean actual fiscal conservatives, not don't-tax-but-still-spend Republicans) here, that I know of, and probably a handful of social conservatives I don't know about.

Personally, I consider myself a liberal, both in the classic sense of believing in the rule of law and the protection of individual rights, and in the more modern sense, although I don't really find the terms' liberal' and 'conservative' useful in denoting polticial leaning. Most 'conservatives' aren't actually very conservative, and I prefer the term 'progressive' to distinguish my political views from classic liberalism.

[ms_ann_thrope]

Originally Posted by Adam

QFT

Seriously, there are a number of fiscal conservatives (note that I mean actual fiscal conservatives, not don't-tax-but-still-spend Republicans) here, that I know of, and probably a handful of social conservatives I don't know about.

Personally, I consider myself a liberal, both in the classic sense of believing in the rule of law and the protection of individual rights, and in the more modern sense, although I don't really find the terms' liberal' and 'conservative' useful in denoting polticial leaning. Most 'conservatives' aren't actually very conservative, and I prefer the term 'progressive' to distinguish my political views from classic liberalism.

Dude, don't make alphamale's head explode. He's not gonna be able to wrap his inelastic little mind around the concept that it's not contradictory for a person to support reproductive freedom, gun ownership rights, and free market economics all at the same time.




I like your notion of using the term "progressive" to distinguish your political views from the otherwise black/white categories of "conservative" and "liberal," which you astutely note really aren't very useful descriptors. Maybe I'll try on "classical Jeffersonian" for size...

[cappuccino]

I like the term 'progressive' too. Classic liberalism pretty much describes my political standing along with certain modern political notions. It's difficult using just conservative and liberal labels since the meaning of those terms have greatly altered over the past century. Most people have a mix of conservative and liberal ideas, none is ever pure conservative or liberal. In fact, in different countries, those terms mean different things than they do here in the US.

Sweetie, are the definitions of conservative and liberal in Canada the same as in the US?

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by CaDan

Aesthetics: The Velvet Underground

Feel sick and dirty, more dead than alive? You're a liberal alright!

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by seebs

The term "extreme" is not at all meaningless. Mao's communists were indeed extremists.

Let's see if I can do a quick repair of your misperception. In the U.S., "extreme" is an LME and propaganda term. How many times have you heard the phrase "extreme left", referring to an american person or organization, from the LME? I never have. The word is used strictly as a slur for anyone to the right of, say, Arlen Spector.

"Extreme" is a relative term - a real definition would be "greatly departing from the norm, in a given context". So if you were a democrat in nazi germany, you would be an extremist. A Maoist communist would be a moderate in the former communist era of say the 50's and 60's - Albania cut off relations with them because they were too "moderate".

Even properly used, that someone is an "extremist" only tells you that his thinking departs from the norm. If the norm is failed, declining, or actually evil, then extremism can be good. The american revolutionaries were "extremists".

[alphamale]

Personally, I consider myself a liberal, both in the classic sense of believing in the rule of law and the protection of individual rights, and in the more modern sense, although I don't really find the terms' liberal' and 'conservative' useful in denoting polticial leaning. Most 'conservatives' aren't actually very conservative, and I prefer the term 'progressive' to distinguish my political views from classic liberalism.

Uh, political history 101 for you: The word "liberal" as it is used in america means almost exactly the opposite of what it did in the nineteenth century, that's because the american left hijacked the term in the early twentieth century. The word still has the original non-hijacked meaning in other parts of the world. You cannot be a classical liberal and modern liberal unless you have multiple personalities.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by alphamale

In the U.S., "extreme" is an LME and propaganda term.

It's true, propagandists love the word 'extreme'.

GOP Designated Liar Sean Hannity, the pompous Bill O'Reilly love to talk about how "extreme" are such mainstream liberals as Franken, MoveOn, Howard Dean, and Michael Moore. The right's repetitive daily smear is that they are so far out of the mainstream that Democrats are taking themselves out of political relevance by following them.

They're afraid that Democrats might catch some passion from these people--their worst fear is that we might become as motivated as they are.

There's no equivalent on the right to Al Franken's book, Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right, and no credible refutation of its content. Besides that--It's hilarious. Hannity, Limbaugh and O'Reilly are devastatingly exposed and their only response has been arrogant dismissiveness.

-source

[alphamale]

Dude, don't make alphamale's head explode. He's not gonna be able to wrap his inelastic little mind around the concept that it's not contradictory for a person to support reproductive freedom, gun ownership rights, and free market economics all at the same time.

"Reproductive freedom" meaning killing fetuses, is utterly incompatible with the other concepts of non-coercive action - this kind of "shit is ice cream" statement could only be uttered by a dimwitted feminist automaton.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by alphamale

"Reproductive freedom" meaning killing fetuses [...]

Since nobody actually uses "reproductive freedom" as a synonym for "killing fetuses" your argument is as impotent as your misogynistic rhetoric.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by alphamale

Let's see if I can do a quick repair of your misperception. In the U.S., "extreme" is an LME and propaganda term. How many times have you heard the phrase "extreme left", referring to an american person or organization, from the LME? I never have. The word is used strictly as a slur for anyone to the right of, say, Arlen Spector.

You have a point. Unfortunately, what you said was a gross exaggeration and overgeneralization, so your arguably valid point has been completely swamped by all the bullshit piled on top of it.

I have heard many people referred to as the extreme left.

"Extreme" is a relative term - a real definition would be "greatly departing from the norm, in a given context". So if you were a democrat in nazi germany, you would be an extremist. A Maoist communist would be a moderate in the former communist era of say the 50's and 60's - Albania cut off relations with them because they were too "moderate".

It is an interesting thing to think of the Maoists as moderates, because moderates don't normally end up killing a hundred million people.

Even properly used, that someone is an "extremist" only tells you that his thinking departs from the norm. If the norm is failed, declining, or actually evil, then extremism can be good. The american revolutionaries were "extremists".

Not necessarily. What extremism normally points to is the decision to place a given goal or ideal above the value of other peoples' lives. You must understand that politics, like every field of inquiry, has terms of art.

[ms_ann_thrope]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Since nobody actually uses "reproductive freedom" as a synonym for "killing fetuses" your argument is as impotent as your misogynistic rhetoric.

Thanks, vm. If I meant killing fetuses, I would've said "killing fetuses." Reproductive freedom encompasses not only abortion but the much larger concepts of BIRTH CONTROL or BEING A SINGLE PARENT. Assuming that you were ever to have sex with a live human female of childbearing age, would you use contraception?

[aside] I'm curious: how come all the anti-abortion picketers outside of my local Planned Parenthood are men? NEVER ONCE have I seen a woman out there. [/aside]

But yeah, alphamale, you know what? Sometimes I think about deliberately getting pregnant, JUST SO THAT I CAN HAVE AN ABORTION. I'll be happy to send you the hoovered-out tissue if you like! I was always planning on having a suction-aspiration abortion if I ever needed one, but for you, I'd be willing to risk my health through the second trimester so that I could send you the scraps from a D&X. You could serve them on little toasts, topped with some caviar!

No, wait, I wouldn't, because you're a complete douchebag and not worth stretchmarks or morning sickness (something I'm sure your poor mother laments to this day having endured to bring what ended up being you into this world). However, I would be more than happy to send you one of my used tampons -- one of the ones with big, ugly, fried egg-looking bloodclots stuck to it -- so that you can revel in the power and glory and possibility that is my fertility! I mean, since you seem to think that ANY woman's uterus is your concern, it's only appropriate that you should have a totem. From me, to you, thanking you for your interest in my welfare.

[Crumb]

ew.

[thewantingseed]

I hereby swear never to get on your bad side, ms_ann_thrope

[Crumb]

You're not on the secret santa list are you, ms_ann_thrope?

[alphamale]

But yeah, alphamale, you know what? Sometimes I think about deliberately getting pregnant, JUST SO THAT I CAN HAVE AN ABORTION. I'll be happy to send you the hoovered-out tissue if you like! I was always planning on having a suction-aspiration abortion if I ever needed one, but for you, I'd be willing to risk my health through the second trimester so that I could send you the scraps from a D&X. You could serve them on little toasts, topped with some caviar!

Does anyone NOW doubt the utility of the term "feminazi"?

[seebs]

Originally Posted by alphamale

Does anyone NOW doubt the utility of the term "feminazi"?

Yes.

What you see there is a sarcastic response to your ludicrous generalizations and stereotypes, and frankly a fairly tame one. It was not nearly as hostile as what you said, but it was a hell of a lot funnier.

[alphamale]

Originally Posted by seebs

Yes.

What you see there is a sarcastic response to your ludicrous generalizations and stereotypes, and frankly a fairly tame one. It was not nearly as hostile as what you said, but it was a hell of a lot funnier.

That you think that this was "funny" deserves a term worse than "feminazi".

[seebs]

Originally Posted by alphamale

That you think that this was "funny" deserves a term worse than "feminazi".

Why? It was a satire of the ludicrous claims made about people in the abortion debate. Satire is funny.

[viscousmemories]

I thought it was hilarious.