billy the butcher

[michael1111]

did ghandi have power? i mean real power...ghandi was forced to bow to that. i was mostly talking about the american power structure, which is the world power structure since its the seat of empire. jpII? how many die as a result of his actions? birth control anyone?

michael

[michael1111]

in the end i think the real power is in banks and corporations anyhow. its in the hands of people who hold no allegiance to anything but themselves. they live all over the world. they actually set a good example...problem is, they do that while doing bad things. maybe thats where the good people learn it from?

in the end, the real power is in the majority that does nothing to stop the madness. power is something accumulated. the powerful are that way because people gave them their own. we flex our might every time we do nothing at all

michael

[thewantingseed]

Originally Posted by Michael1111

im the minority that expresses things from my own perspective, without quoting anybody

Am I not giving you my perspective? What is the difference between providing a link and providing a quote? Besides the fact that quoting something shows directly what you're trying to say; a link is essentially the same thing, if not on a broader scale.

did ghandi have power? i mean real power

Well, what is your definition of 'real power?' Persuasive, political, monetary; what?
It is all well and good that you are simply stating your own opinions, but if you make certain claims, you should back them up to be conducive to a reasonable debate.

jpII? how many die as a result of his actions?

I don't know; you tell me. I haven't heard of any; at least not any that are a pertinent or directly intentional result. In fact, didn't he publicly apologize for all the wrongdoings of previous Catholic leaders? He apologized to Galileo, for christ's sake. But, this is neither here nor there, since it really has nothing to do with the issue.
Claims like this hold no weight without some sort of proof. Without said evidence, you are simply spewing mindless propaganda. And what the hell does birth control have to do with the topic at hand?
Besides, I was just giving breif examples of people who held a fair amount of sway that you did not prove as corrupt.
Yes, there is a fair amount of corruption among the 'powerful,' I agree. But you keep changing your stance and saying things that are totally out of context and can not be taken seriously,

in the end i think the real power is in banks and corporations anyhow.--->in the end, the real power is in the majority that does nothing to stop the madness.--->i was mostly talking about the american power structure, which is the world power structure since its the seat of empire.-->that money is more powerful.

i see no difference between the parties in power. they all serve the same masters in my eyes.------>i will bet you money that bill clinton is responsible for more deaths in iraq during his reign than both the bushs.

Can you see how much you contradict yourself?

[michael1111]

no, i dont. you took me out of context. dont do that. i was speaking about what most perceive as power, but by the end of it all, i was owning up to the fact that we all have power really. maybe youre confused cuz you read me out of context?

my bet about bill clinton? so what...again, i was just trying to prove a point. so i made a bet about clinton killing more...my point was in trying to show that even the good ol boys can be something quite different than how they present themselves.

i dont need to offer you anything in terms of proofs. how many children are conceived because of religious adherence to rules that just allow them to suffer later?

do i bother you? im not going to give you facts. this is my truth. im not some lackey mouthpiece that goes running for stats. this is who i am and what i think. do you think im ignorant? think again...

are you going to follow me around and analyze me? i dont mind...i like the attention.

michael

[michael1111]

Originally Posted by michael1111

and to be honest, i think both sides are stupid and wrong. i just want to always be around to point out to people that they are grading themselves as humans by siding with the people they think murder less...and thats why it wont ever stop. its not really the issue, now is it?

did you miss this? you seem to have missed some things in your quest to simply tear apart my own truth. you wont make me waver. you wont get me following your advice. dont like me, dont read me, but i stand by everything i say here.

if i got you proof (and anybody can do that online), why would it make you believe me more? thats learned behaviour...its the stuff of sheep.

michael

[thewantingseed]

I don't think you're ignorant at all, in fact in my first post I stated the opposite. Do you feel like I'm following you around and analyzing you? You've said in other threads how much you enjoy debate; so I'm trying to debate. Perhaps I pose too many off my thoughts as questions; I do not mean to give the impression that I am trying to nit-pick you. In fact, I see too much of that here; I'm simply trying to disagree in a rational manner. Maybe I did take your quotes out of context, and if that is true I apologize. I was simply taking your quotes one post at a time; if they all tied together in some general train of thought I apologize for not immediately making the connection. If you don't want to offer up proof, that's fine; however, I see no reason to continue this since it's going nowhere. If you're so focused on your 'own truth', then why are you bothering with this? I'm getting the impression that you really aren't interested in what other people have to say; I'm not wasting anymore of my time.

And no, I did not miss that. I was pointing out the fact that you were saying two separate things, and that quote doesn't change the fact that you either said the opposite or implied it on more then one occasion.
Why would proof make me believe you more? Um...maybe because I have no reason to believe anything you say, and I'd be more inclined to listen to a reliable source. Which you don't have.
I really tried to engage you in a meaningful discussion; maybe I went about it wrong, but...
Whatever man.

[michael1111]

but im cool for debate...you just seem to be debating my facts and focusing on what im saying. youre not debating me, youre correcting me. i dont see you offering up your perspective too much, just how you feel mine is lacking. is that not true?

ive got no prob with you, but youre not debating me. im not going to offer you up figures that a)are easy to obtain online, and b)are just to prove to you that i believe myself

anyhow...its all good. you seem like a smart person. id enjoy debating you...

michael

[thewantingseed]

Yes; to a certain extent I agree with you.
While I do maintain my claims about your posts, I can see how I was mostly questioning and offering very few of my own claims. Well, I get incoherent when it's late, maybe that's it...Also, I didn't feel like you made any point that was worth countering with one of my own; but perhaps I misinterpreted some of your claims.

[michael1111]

i will admit to not paying as much attention as i probably should have to what im saying here...i am at work, but i was also debating in several threads today and maybe that had something to do with my willy-nilly style. i did go back and read it and it mostly made sense to me...but then...i wrote it!

michael

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by michael1111

who is hyterical? thats your interpretation, sauron.

No, it's reality. We were discussing advances in American society pro/con the Dems and Reps, and you took a linear jump onto "killing the planet."

i guess i what im saying makes you nervous cuz i was pretty calm when i said it.

Nothing you could say would make me nervous; I've studied politics for about as long as you've been alive. Or longer.

i stand by what i said.

1. Which doesn't help, since it was irrelevant to the question.
2. Do you plan to address the points I made?

as for womens 'rights', i wrote a post about that in the watering hole... 'duhhh dis is for da ladies duhhh'...

That's nice. If that post contradicts what I said above, you'll have to let me know.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by michael1111

no...i presented evidence hoping to show that ALL people in 'power' are corrupt and do rotten things, since it seems so popular and easy to always pick on the right lately. what im saying i wont debate, is who does more killing. im so tired of the left and right proving how great their side is by pointing out the faults of the others. it would be nice if it was more often a pissing contest about the good things they do. anyhow, thats what i wasnt going to debate- who murders more. i didnt present it that way and i wont debate it that way...

Then you are missing the entire point. In your deliberate refusal to differentiate shades of grey (or guilt), you somehow think you're amazingly enlightened. It doesn't work that way. Two groups of people may both be guilty, but is shoplifting the same as car theft? Is tax evasion the same thing as genocide? These are choices. And they must be made. Life isn't perfect, and you aren't going to get Mother Theresa running for office. Sorry to break the news to you, by the way.

By wishing a pox on both houses and walking away with your nose in the air, you remove yourself from the ability to make any change. In all situations, we have a choice, often the lesser of two evils.

Your attitude was precisely what put Bush in office: the Nader wingnuts decided that there was really no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans - so they threw away their votes and we got Shit-For-Brains in the White House.

[D. Scarlatti]

Give him a break; he's from Canada, where there are 19 equally viable federal parties.*

* And a couple of regional parties capable of at least forming the opposition, thanks to wild population disparities.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by michael1111

my bet about bill clinton? so what...again, i was just trying to prove a point. so i made a bet about clinton killing more...my point was in trying to show that even the good ol boys can be something quite different than how they present themselves.

Well, your original intent was to try and show that both sides were equally bad. Apparently under closer questioning, you are repositioning yourself.

You're learning. It's a start.

i dont need to offer you anything in terms of proofs.

Then why should anyone give a fuck about what you say?

do i bother you? im not going to give you facts.

1. No.
2. Apparently.

this is my truth. im not some lackey mouthpiece that goes running for stats. this is who i am and what i think. do you think im ignorant? think again...

Hm. Well, "your truth" is just a cop-out for "Shit, I didn't expect to actually have to defend what I said; now what do I do?"

I think this flash in the pan is over, folks. Move along, nothing to see here.

[michael1111]

why am i hysterical for saying we are killing the planet? thats your assumption and emotion youre placing on me.

oh...youve studied politics for that long? well i see what youve got invested. thats a long time to be a sucker

irrelevant to what question? you werent even addressing the point i was trying to make. i would address your points if you had one. i didnt see any and moved on.

nice chatting with ya

michael

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by michael1111

why am i hysterical for saying we are killing the planet?

Because it had nothing to do with the topic we were discussing, which if you recall was comparing social progress in America and what roles the Dem Party and the Rep Party had played in advancing, or holding back, that progress.

oh...youve studied politics for that long? well i see what youve got invested. thats a long time to be a sucker

Hardly. It just allows me to quickly separate angst-kiddies like yourself from people actually informed about politics.

irrelevant to what question? you werent even addressing the point i was trying to make.

Yes, I was. At least, I was trying to, until you did a lateral move onto "killing the planet".

i would address your points if you had one. i didnt see any and moved on.

Denial - there's a point right above that you failed to address (among others): comparing social progress in America and what roles the Dem Party and the Rep Party had played in advancing, or holding back, that progress.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by michael1111

but im cool for debate...you just seem to be debating my facts and focusing on what im saying.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh out loud. If your "facts" and "what you're saying" are out of bounds in this "debate", what exactly should Seed be focusing his responses on? Your avatar? Your postcount? That's just the silliest thing I've ever heard someone say. I think for all your blather about free speech and wanting to debate, you were closest to honest when you said "im not going to give you facts. this is my truth."

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge you the right to have your own truth. I just wish you'd quit claiming that your Truth is proof of everyone else's moral inferiority.

[michael1111]

i never once said im enlightened nor do i think it, but thanx for that assumption. glad you recognized something in me

stealing is stealing, in my eyes. to be honest, i think stealing the concept is the biggest crime. who was the first to hoard? but thats just dreamy old me.

who said i wish a pox on both sides? again, this is your interpretation. i actually wish them well and hope for some accountability. if your only choice is the lesser of two evils, you support evil. thats your own doing...you and the majority can believe that way, but dont force your nonsense on me.

there is no difference between the democrats and the republicans, from this guys pov.

------

yes im canadian and we have lots of parties..more choices as to which direction i throw away my vote. its nonsense in my eyes.

-----

im learning? geez thanx teach. would you like to compare lives, real lives? lets put our living stats, jobs, income, pictures, and everything else that makes us who we are in the real world and place them side by side. you want to have a competition...bring it on.

im curious...why are some proofs better than others? i think my truth is reasonable within my world. you might think thats crazy, but nobody would even think of necessary evils in my world...we know thats still evil...but im the crazy one?

yes i bother you. i know i do. you can sit and rave that i dont, but ive certainly made you waste a lot of time focusing on things you find negative. all youve basically done is try to school me...its ok...its how you were raised

you wish i would leave. why so anxious? why so quick to deem me a flash in the plan? my confidence in my own truth is a spotlight on your own inadequacy. youre just a label, mabel.

take care...feel free to put me on ignore, chump. or follow me around...i dont care

michael

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

Give him a break; he's from Canada, where there are 19 equally viable federal parties.*

* And a couple of regional parties capable of at least forming the opposition, thanks to wild population disparities.

I have great respect for Canada, and their form of govt. More respect than I have for the USA and its form of govt, actually. (I realize that isn't saying much; I don't hold much regard for American govt).

What I don't respect is someone who:

a. thinks that simple-minded political angst is an acceptable substitute for political/social analysis -- and then

b. waves their hands and says "You aren't getting any facts, it's my truth, and I don't have to support it -- but by the way, you're deceived if you don't agree with me."

[michael1111]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh out loud. If your "facts" and "what you're saying" are out of bounds in this "debate", what exactly should Seed be focusing his responses on? Your avatar? Your postcount? That's just the silliest thing I've ever heard someone say. I think for all your blather about free speech and wanting to debate, you were closest to honest when you said "im not going to give you facts. this is my truth."

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge you the right to have your own truth. I just wish you'd quit claiming that your Truth is proof of everyone else's moral inferiority.

you must be a moron cuz even seed understood it. i meant he was soley focusing on me, without really offering his side at all. he even admitted to that. why dont you go back to read...in fact, we settled it nicely with me admitting to posting in haste...post haste!

your ignorance and taking things out of context to belittle me, also made me laugh. at least i wasnt being mean. follow me around boys...im cool wit it


michael

[michael1111]

why would i want to analyze something i think is fake and used as a form of control and a way to keep people off balance and arguing with other. politics seems like religion to me. you can think im crazy, but why would i debate that? my point of the thread was to debate the fact that i see no difference, but now you want me to somehow prove...what? forget it...

so what if i think youre deceived...you think im deceived. you dnot see me running around following you and acting like a knob. come on...lets see who is more successful in life, smart guy. come on...

michael

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by michael1111

i never once said im enlightened nor do i think it,

Good. That saves us the trouble of deflating that balloon.

stealing is stealing, in my eyes. to be honest,

But that wasn't the question. Is stealing as bad as genocide?

who said i wish a pox on both sides? again, this is your interpretation.

No, it's your viewpoint: they're both equally bad, remember?

if your only choice is the lesser of two evils, you support evil.

In politics, the choice is always a lesser of two evils. That is reality: yours - mine - everyone's. Some people are in denial and think otherwise, but as I said: you aren't going to see Mother Theresa running for office.

there is no difference between the democrats and the republicans, from this guys pov.

1. A pox on both their houses again.

2. I provided you a difference between the Dems and Reps (support/obstruction of social advances). Plan to address that anytime soon, poptart?

im learning? geez thanx teach.

Don't thank me. Most people learn that particular lesson much earlier than you.

would you like to compare lives, real lives? lets put our living stats, jobs, income, pictures, and everything else that makes us who we are in the real world and place them side by side. you want to have a competition...bring it on.

To what end? How will that help support your argument here? Assuming that you've decided to support it, I mean?

im curious...why are some proofs better than others?

Because some proofs map to reality better than other ones do.

i think my truth is reasonable within my world.

The problem is that you have to interact with the rest of the world. Suddenly your worldview breaks down when it comes in contact with reality.

yes i bother you. i know i do.

No, you don't.

you can sit and rave that i dont, but ive certainly made you waste a lot of time focusing on things you find negative.

Oh, child. The assumptions you make. I suggest you ask around here about me. What you'll find is that I will debate politics/religion with pretty much anyone. You're not special; nor are you even that difficult to beat. And I find nothing negative about focusing on politics; I enjoy it.

you wish i would leave.

No, I wish you would support your arguments. Apparently that ain't gonna happen.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by michael1111

why would i want to analyze something i think is fake and used as a form of control and a way to keep people off balance and arguing with other. politics seems like religion to me.

You might want to prove that it was fake, in light of the overwhelming evidence that political power is a real force.

But that sounds like study and work, doesn't it?

my point of the thread was to debate the fact that i see no difference, but now you want me to somehow prove...what? forget it...

You made a claim.
I assumed that you had some way to prove the claim.
Silly me.

so what if i think youre deceived...you think im deceived. you dnot see me running around following you and acting like a knob.

It's a political discussion forum. Excuse me for wanting to discuss politics. Maybe someone with a nickel's worth will show up soon. Until then, you're a useful chew-toy.

come on...lets see who is more successful in life, smart guy. come on...

How does this map back to the argument at hand?
Second time I've asked that, by the way.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by michael1111

you must be a moron

Originally Posted by michael1111

your ignorance and taking things out of context to belittle me, also made me laugh.

You're pathetic, and I'm done with you. Enjoy preaching your Truth.

[michael1111]

you know what, sauron, youre correct about this being a political forum. i probably should have put it in the philosophy section, or somewhere like that, but i guess the parties involved that made up my example were political, so i just came in here. however, youre correct...perhaps it was something else i was looking for.

vm, we had already settled it. your only reason to go back to it, after i even admitted fault, was to add negative to the negative. im sure after my disasterous entrance, you dont like me very much. understood, but theres no need to be mean. wahhhh!

and before i shut up on this, sauron- you can act smug and think youre all that and a bag of chips, but if youve been studying politics for longer than ive been alive, you must be a slow learner or partly retarded. theres really not much to it. now that may be my pov, but i base my findings on what ive studied- politicians. you probably study how its supposed to be, while i take a look at how it is. how it is, is in the hands of those at or near the top.

have you ever met really powerful people like that, from any party, in the flesh? i have. i have met prime ministers, cabinet ministers, foreign ministers of other countries...as people, they are all the same. they are mostly bullies. they act like gangsters. they look right through you. there are exceptions, but they are mostly cold and they are in it for themselves. they are the kind of people who feel they can 'dismiss' you. i loathe those kind of people. and even if you dont have a job where you run into them, you can see it from just watching and listening to what they say on tv or print. your politics is bound to be touched by who and what these people are. and i mean how they speak as individuals, not just figureheads of a shared dream, which, as we all know, is an impossible dream. have you ever done that, listened to them as individual people? its really not that odd a quesiton...it was late in life when i did...scared me...

id prefer a tolerant world of many individual dreams applied by the golden rule, but thats me!

i post my own truth. that truth has been bounced off of thousands of ears on many forums. some people love me, some dont, i dont care. this is a fucking amazing education. my facts and what i base my beliefs and dreams on is all of you. that is not a cop out. that is not a buy for votes. that is the truth for me. i have been at this each day for 3-4 years. i love it. i listen to music, get to write and i learn. i learn in how i interpret all of you. in politics, ive learned by studying the people that practice it. what are THEIR goals?...who are THEY? thats where the parties merge...its just about that shared dream- money. no facts to back that up...just a gut feeling.

so, sauron, please dont go around anymore declaring me a flash in the pan and other such bullshit that shows your cards. im glad you perceive me as at least being bright . ive still got life in me and ill stick around. some good topics get posted. some interesting people. you can follow me around all you want while im here, but if you push it too far, i will be relentless within the rules to make your life miserable in here. i am a professional at that. i live to be mean to mean people.

im moving on...

im sorry for my damn bad entrance! geez

michael

[thewantingseed]

Originally Posted by Michael1111

...you must be a moron cuz even seed understood it. i meant he was soley focusing on me...

I'd prefer not being touted as on your side. The only thing I understood was that I was nitpicking; I never said that I agreed with you or understood your points. To quote you about taking people out of context: don't do that.
I too am done with this.