WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY?!

[Goliath]

No, seriously. What the FUCK is wrong with the 51% of the voting population that voted for Bush?! I want to line them up, and one by one pick each of them up by their necks and scream "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!" over and over again until they tell me precisely what the fuck is wrong with them.

I'd ask about what's wrong with my state of SD (who voted out Daschle and put a prick in his place who will be nothing more than a puppet for Bush), but the answer is obvious: The name of the state has the word "Dakota" in it.

[Petra]

I know, I know.

As I watched the coverage, all I could do was shake my head sadly and wonder...

[Godless Dave]

Well, all he did was lie us into an unnecessary war and run up a huge budget deficit.

Canada here I come.

[THX1138]

And let's not forget our second-class citizens:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...age/index.html

(CNN) -- Six months after gay and lesbian couples won the right to marry in Massachusetts, opponents of same-sex marriage struck back Tuesday, with voters in 11 states approving constitutional amendments codifying marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution.

& I'm quite certain that fear of "faggotry" was a huge factor in the presidential election (or more specifically: It was made a huge factor via scaremongering Repugs).

I voted Kerry.

Now I'm voting New Zealand.

J

[SharonDee]

I've been asking myself that question ever since I got up this morning, Goliath. I know too many Bush supporters IRL so I'm having to calm myself down before going in to work this morning.

I'll be dressed all in black, BTW. I'm in mourning for my country.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by THX1138

I'm quite certain that fear of "faggotry" was a huge factor in the presidential election

I think there's a lot to that idea. The suprisingly large chunk of poll respondents who said "moral values" were their number one priority seem likely to be anti-gay marriage initiative voters. Hell, I didn't even know there were a dozen states with such initiatives on the ballot; I certainly didn't anticipate the possibility that they might actually draw in a strongly Bush-supporting segment of the electorate.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by THX1138

Now I'm voting New Zealand.

J

What are you doing in Louisiana if you'd rather be in NZ?

If your avatar is you, you look like you gotta a bit of Maori in you - do you?


Welcome, by the way.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I think there's a lot to that idea. The suprisingly large chunk of poll respondents who said "moral values" were their number one priority seem likely to be anti-gay marriage initiative voters. Hell, I didn't even know there were a dozen states with such initiatives on the ballot; I certainly didn't anticipate the possibility that they might actually draw in a strongly Bush-supporting segment of the electorate.

I hadn't thought about that question bringing out Bush supporters in the states where it was on the ballot. One of those states was Ohio:

Voters in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah all approved anti-same-sex marriage amendments by double-digit margins.

from here

Helen

[Adam]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I think there's a lot to that idea. The suprisingly large chunk of poll respondents who said "moral values" were their number one priority seem likely to be anti-gay marriage initiative voters. Hell, I didn't even know there were a dozen states with such initiatives on the ballot; I certainly didn't anticipate the possibility that they might actually draw in a strongly Bush-supporting segment of the electorate.

I was going to say the same thing. I find it both interesting and disheartening that, despite constant public assertions by both major parties, the pundits, the media, etc., assertions that I disagree with, by the way, that "9/11 changed everything", 9/11 changed nothing. The spoiler issue this year wasn't national security, the supposed new hot button issue, or our so-called war president and the result of his military policies, it was a 90's style culture war retro issue, the sort that we've supposedly put behind us to focus on the new and dangerous world we supposedly live in. I'm not sure what that means for American politics.

What I do know is that I'm apparently hopelessly out of step with a sizable chunk of my countrymen and women. I care about good jobs for people who want to work, decent health care for everyone, rational foreign policy with an eye toward preventing violence, and national security. They care, apparently, about whether or not two men are allowed to share an insurance policy. I called my mother (a staunch Democrat and strong Catholic) this morning to suggest that, if we ever want to see sane government again, her church, and other religious institutions, are going to have to make a decision about what they value more. Is it peace and humanitarianism, or is it who's allowed to marry whom and who controls whose reproductive organs?

I've felt vaguely naseous all morning. I think I'm going to go home at lunch and cry or yell or something.

[Scotty]

All my sisters and their husbands voted bushy, I have to convince my wife not judge them too harshly.

What I don't understand is that I wouldn't want bushy in office because of his environmental policies and his nuclear weapons policies alone. It is just that easy.

I don't think people understand the subjects, they only see what is on TV, and the TV only covers what is sensational (or what they consider sensational).

When you get right down to it, the people vote for who they identify with. The advent of tons of TV (and almost everybody having a TV) coverage as brought the image of what the president is down to a more common level. They must appeal to this "common man" identity and talk and act at that level.

I don't think Kerry was believable in his stances, and I don't think he was a strong choice for the Democratic party. Maybe he was the only choice out of what was there, which is really sad.

I guess I now see Cheney running for pres next time (actually, I don't think he would be a choice, not "common" enough, too "grumpy".).

You have to have a good looking president, not one that can do the job. That is left to everybody else.

I guess all I look forward to is more attacks on countries that might do something to us, then running out of money to do that anymore. Then, you have to back out of doing this "war on <name>" because you don't have the money anymore, unless you take all of the resources and money from the countries that you are "helping" to continue the "war on <name>".

Then, you back out of doing this "war on <name>" and everything is cool for a while, you get 10-15 years off, then somebody attacks you again. Or, the economy is so bad that you can't do much to defend yourself because you have been overextended for so many years.

But of course, you have to go attack because they are the evil terrorists and if you don't attack they will just think you are weak and will attack you again and again. So the cycle begins anew. The rich get more money from whatever they do, and the people who are funding the "war on <name>" do just that.

I feel so safe now, knowing that democracy is being planted like a seed to grow and flourish in all of the axis of evil countries. Being planted with love and care at the end of a gun. WORK YOU, GET THAT PLANTED OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!

I can feel the love.

Wow, did I have a lot to say? Wonder where that came from?

<sigh>

I guess in terms of "war on <name>" even though I understand that people think that human nature indicates that violence will happen, I can never really wrap my mind around it. I can't figure out why people feel the need to kill somebody because they don't agree with them (mentally unstable people not withstanding). It is hard for me to think that killing is the only solution to a problem somebody has. What needs to happen for people to stop doing that?

All I see with "war on <name>" is people who didn't do anything at all being killed. Sure, there are probably some who were going to do something or wanted to or were planning to, but what is that percentage? How many people out there really want to kill other people, on purpose?

It is really sad that somebody thinks that is the only option.

I have become more empathetic with other people ever since I came to the conclusion [Gg]od didn't exist. It really put a huge perspective on things that I never had before. I thought beyond my own nose, I thought beyond "they are in heaven", to "they are never more", and that is where I stand with "war on <name>"



-Scott

[THX1138]

Originally Posted by lunachick

What are you doing in Louisiana if you'd rather be in NZ?

Stuck. I still have dreams of moving to NZ-- dunno when tho.

If your avatar is you, you look like you gotta a bit of Maori in you - do you?

No Maori, but I do have a bit of Native American in me. That pic is from a couple months back. I've grown my hair back since then, but this pic goes well (sort of anyway) with my screen-name! Hiya back!

Originally Posted by Adam

I've felt vaguely naseous all morning. I think I'm going to go home at lunch and cry or yell or something.

I feel the same way.

I predict a "pre-emptive strike" against Iran in the near future...

J

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Scotty

I don't think Kerry was believable in his stances...

Interesting that you should say that. My flatmate, who has not been so caught up in US and world politics as I am and hasn't read much about Kerry - only heard him speak on News soundbites - said to me as he watched some of the final campaign moments on the telly with me, "I dunno, I just don't find him very convincing".

As I had read much of Kerry's history, I do find him convincing and told Paul why I did. But he just replied, "Well, that might be, but he still doesn't come across as particularly convincing to me".

So in that respect, perhaps he was a poor Dem choice - but then what would be a "convincing" alternative - a simple-minded rant and meme machine?

*sigh*

[Petra]

Originally Posted by THX1138

Stuck. I still have dreams of moving to NZ-- dunno when tho.
J

Well, if it's any help to you, NZ has relaxed it's immigration policies a little. Now might be a good time to look into it.

Good luck.

[freemonkey]

Originally Posted by Adam

What I do know is that I'm apparently hopelessly out of step with a sizable chunk of my countrymen and women. I care about good jobs for people who want to work, decent health care for everyone, rational foreign policy with an eye toward preventing violence, and national security. They care, apparently, about whether or not two men are allowed to share an insurance policy. I called my mother (a staunch Democrat and strong Catholic) this morning to suggest that, if we ever want to see sane government again, her church, and other religious institutions, are going to have to make a decision about what they value more. Is it peace and humanitarianism, or is it who's allowed to marry whom and who controls whose reproductive organs?

Well put. Its very depressing.

And I'm afraid that so many people are either too tired, too lazy or too overwhelmed with "information" to weed the facts from fiction.

[Clutch Munny]

What's wrong with the country was obvious long before any election results came in.

Citizens of the nation that fancies itself an exporter of democracy were waiting 5, 6, 7 hours to vote. To vote.

No media panic about this.

No pundit outrage.

No public outcry.

Because, after all, few or none of those people drove up to the voting station in a Lincoln Navigator.

If you saw it happening in Albania, its significance would be obvious: This is a country in which the grasp of and commitment to democracy is so thin that the basic procedures look like they were designed by Bozo the Clown.

If you have to wait three minutes at the video rental store, you get antsy. If you see people forced to wait hours to vote, and wait days or weeks for their votes to be counted...

...pass me the hickory sticks, Survivor's coming on...

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

What's wrong with the country was obvious long before any election results came in.

Citizens of the nation that fancies itself an exporter of democracy were waiting 5, 6, 7 hours to vote. To vote.

No media panic about this.

No pundit outrage.

No public outcry.

Because, after all, few or none of those people drove up to the voting station in a Lincoln Navigator.

If you saw it happening in Albania, its significance would be obvious: This is a country in which the grasp of and commitment to democracy is so thin that the basic procedures look like they were designed by Bozo the Clown.

It's alright, Clutch, US Inspires World With Attempt At Democratic Election

NEW YORK—Observers from around the world report that they were inspired and moved by America's most recent attempt to hold a public election in accordance with the standards of a democratic republic.

"After all of the recriminations, infighting, and general madness before the election, the people of this fractured nation still found the courage to show up at the polls," said Anas Salman, an Afghan U.N. official who was in New York during the American electoral experiment. "More than half of America's citizens—a large portion of them women—made a valiant attempt to choose their own leader, even though there was no guarantee their votes would be counted. It was truly inspirational."

In the weeks leading up to the election, both of America's political parties alleged fraud in voter registration. Additionally, experts debated the reliability of electronic voting machines, which experienced problems in trial runs and leave no paper trail. Election officials also bemoaned many states' use of outdated punchcard machines.

Considering such disputes, Salman said he was "touched and gladdened" that voter turnout for the U.S. election nearly approached voter-turnout rates for Afghanistan's first popular elections in October, when 69 percent of citizens cast ballots.

"True, voter turnout in many parts of the world tops 90 percent," Salman said. "But it's understandable that the rate is lower in countries such as Afghanistan, where the government has raised fears of possible terrorist attacks at the polls. Our people showed great courage."

[...]

"Despite the specter of corruption in 2000, and even though the procedural problems which surfaced during the previous election were never remedied, the American people chose to put their faith in the system once again this year," said Joseph Mtume, a Kenyan diplomat who traveled to Ohio to view America's democratic proceedings. "You can't help but feel touched by the determination of these citizens who put their doubts aside to collectively participate in the democratic process. All this in a nation divided by war, where dissent is widespread and the rift between citizens has rarely been higher. It was truly stirring."

Carlos Cruz, an Argentinian diplomat who observed the election in Miami, said he was profoundly moved by America's democratic election.

[...]

The multinational watchdog group Organization for Security and Cooperation sent 600 official observers to monitor proceedings, from countries as disparate as North Korea, Syria, and China. Many reported that they came away deeply touched.

"To see a country with such overwhelming problems—problems that affect every last citizen—have so many of its voters feel that they can still influence their leadership... words fail me," said Dae Jung Kim, a North Korean OSC delegate. "Certainly, my report to my own government will emphasize this. I will recommend that my leaders implement such American election-time strategies and tactics as would fit the North Korean model of personal freedom, such as their elegant Electoral College and the inscrutable voting machine."

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Goliath

No, seriously. What the FUCK is wrong with the 51% of the voting population that voted for Bush?! I want to line them up, and one by one pick each of them up by their necks and scream "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!" over and over again until they tell me precisely what the fuck is wrong with them.

They voted based on their values, Goliath; they voted against gay marriage/gay rights, they voted against "tearing little babies apart", they voted against the Whore of Babylon Roman Catholic Church, they voted against "coddling those ragheaded brown people". Most of the country considers themselves not only Christian, but evangelical. The Baptist pulpit was as influential as any campaign stop podium this time around.

That they voted to continue to be un(der)employed, at war, and surveilled just didn't register with them.

I'd ask about what's wrong with my state of SD (who voted out Daschle and put a prick in his place who will be nothing more than a puppet for Bush), but the answer is obvious: The name of the state has the word "Dakota" in it.

From my understanding, Daschle homesteaded his place in DC, making him a "Washington asshole" and that pissed off the South Dakotans.

We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.

[Godless Dave]

I didn't like Daschle anyway. He was spineless in facing up to Bush's lies about Iraq, among many other issues.

My state had a chance to increase the number of Democrats in our House delegation, but we couldn't pull it off.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

We all are angry, but we need to find contructive ways to channel that anger and try to keep Bush from stripping us of our rights completely.

My plan is to channel it all the way to British Columbia.

I was prepared to fight if Bush stole the election again. But if a majority of American voters willingly re-elected the worst president of the last 100 years, fuck it, they deserve what's coming to them.

[LadyShea]

Looks like Harry Reid, from Nevada, may take over for Daschle. He's a good guy, and I have yet to see him be wimpy.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Looks like Harry Reid, from Nevada, may take over for Daschle. He's a good guy, and I have yet to see him be wimpy.

I hope so. It would be nice to have an actual opposition party again, instead of the kiss-Bush's-ass party the Democrats have been for the last four years.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

If you have to wait three minutes at the video rental store, you get antsy. If you see people forced to wait hours to vote, and wait days or weeks for their votes to be counted...

...pass me the hickory sticks, Survivor's coming on...

<libertarian mode>

Well, the difference is that the video store is a private enterprise with a profit motoive, while polling is carried out by the big bad inefficient government, so the obvious solution is to privating the polling places and give them economic incentives to bring in the most voters. Hey! Maybe if people had to buy the right to vote, then each polling place would compete to get you through the line quicker so they could earn your voting dollar, and...

</libertarian mode>

*slap*

Oops, sorry. Won't happen again.

Seriously, I worked the polls yesterday, and I'm amazed by how antiquated some of our procedures are. The fate of our democracy rests on whether or not I put the right form in the right paper bag before I staple it shut...

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

My plan is to channel it all the way to British Columbia.

I was prepared to fight if Bush stole the election again. But if a majority of American voters willingly re-elected the worst president of the last 100 years, fuck it, they deserve what's coming to them.

That was just barely a majority. Almost half voted for change. Please don't leave and reduce that further.

[Petra]

LOL, Adam.

Although antiquated may just be what America needs in it's voting methods - the high tech methods are pretty dodgy it seems.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

That was just barely a majority. Almost half voted for change. Please don't leave and reduce that further.

I was going to suggest we all leave. We could trigger a Canadian economic boom while the US implodes under the weight of its own bigotry and arrogance.