WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY?!

[Farren]

Liv how many times have you seen this



(couldn't find the exact smiley but you know what I mean)

next to this

"Don't let the door hit you on your way out".

Give the general tone of the preceding remarks and the shit some of us have given Goliath over denotation and connotation I'd like to suggest that a double standard appears to be in place.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Farren

And Liv, I think your comments on Lisa's rant are coloured by an affection that makes you use different yardsticks for Lisa and Goliath. Sorry, but I disagree. I didn't see Goliath's original post but a little evenhandedness in evaluating things wouldn't go amiss.

You're right, Farren. lisa's writing inevitably slays me, so it's easy for me to support her. Goliath's rages, otoh, charm me not one whit, so I'm more likely to snap at him than at her.

It's just that lisa didn't ask a question like whether Bree wanted to see her son killed. She's pissed at Bree's air of laconic superiority, sure, but I don't see lisa actually questioning Bree for evidence of bloodlust. That's a whole other level of sick shit, imo, which is why I countered it.

I'm sorry for being uneven in my contempt, Goliath.

Lets not turn on each other.

It's hard, though, Farren. I don't want people like Bree or Cool Hand to be the targets of splenetic hatred here. I'm beginning to think our enclosure into liberal enclaves online has damaged our sense of proportion beyond all reason. The solution to that is more people with opposing viewpoints dissecting our positions, not beating the crap out of them.

Even purely for my own self-interest, my own edification, my attempts to understand, I want to have discussions, not ritualistic rendings of The Other. How do I discourage the latter?

With a whole lot of love, honestly,

Of course, Farren. Thank you for keeping me honest.

[Godless Dave]

I thought Goliath's question to Bree was appropriate, given Bree's earlier stated position that it did not matter whether Bush or Kerry won the election.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Goliath

But...you're an Admin....unless you meant just leaving the thread.

Bingo.

Fuck, the headache and slight buzz are starting to faintly come back.

You know what to do. Do it.

[Goliath]

Thank you for the apology, liv. And thanks, Farren.

Originally Posted by livius drusus

You know what to do. Do it.

I can't. A student will be coming in any minute. However, I know what to do at 3:00, when my office hours are over.

Between now and then, I'm going to stay away from this board and try to calm myself down. I apologize for angering you, and I apologize both to Bree and to lisarea for asking the question that I asked of Bree.

I still meant what I said in my OP, though.

* Goliath sighs...

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Farren

Give the general tone of the preceding remarks and the shit some of us have given Goliath over denotation and connotation I'd like to suggest that a double standard appears to be in place.

Nope. Sorry, Farren, I'm not buying that one. I have never suggested anyone leave this forum. I have worked assiduously in public and private for the opposite. He knows this. If he wants to think the worst of me, he's welcome to it, but I have given him every reason not to and so will not accept the burden of having to reassure him that I was talking about my movements and not his.

[Lauri D]

I'm so depressed. So depressed. So depressed. SO. DEPRESSED.

I don't think I can be nice to anyone in the next few days that might happen to have voted for Bush. I am thinking bad, evil thoughts and would also like to scream at the whole country, collectively, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

So.

Depressed.

[Petra]

Farren, I love you man, but I'm with lisarea and GodlessDave on this issue.

I like Bree, too, and if we are not going anywhere near politics, we can be civil and friendly.

But in this one thing, I think lisarea is bang on. And I most sincerely hope that her son - who, by all accounts, sounds like a pretty amazing young man - will never have to go to war.

I sincerely hope he is able to stay safe and live among us for a very, very, very long time. Young men like him are rare and so very valuable. Thanks for raising him to be the way he is, lisarea.

[SharonDee]

Originally Posted by Lauri D

I'm so depressed. So depressed. So depressed. SO. DEPRESSED.

I don't think I can be nice to anyone in the next few days that might happen to have voted for Bush. I am thinking bad, evil thoughts and would also like to scream at the whole country, collectively, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

So.

Depressed.

That is SO what I was saying at 7:00 this morning. You go ahead and cry, honey; let it out. I have had a few good ones myself today and I recommend it.

[Farren]

Originally Posted by lunachick

Farren, I love you man, but I'm with lisarea and GodlessDave on this issue.

I like Bree, too, and if we are not going anywhere near politics, we can be civil and friendly.

But in this one thing, I think lisarea is bang on. And I most sincerely hope that her son - who, by all accounts, sounds like a pretty amazing young man - will never have to go to war.

I sincerely hope he is able to stay safe and live among us for a very, very, very long time. Young men like him are rare and so very valuable. Thanks for raising him to be the way he is, lisarea.

Yeah but she didn't give indication that she likes Bree too. Taken in isolation, her post was pure venom. As partial as I am to Lisa's rants, I only enjoy them without a guilty conscience when their targets are scattershot - a whole demographic or uninvolved person. I must admit that they make me uncomfortable when they're so honed and targeted on someone who has such obvious merit in many departments.

And Liv, perhaps its my state (mildly intoxicated) but I read exactly the same thing into your comment that Goliath did. Fine, logic dictates it would be slightly out of character for you to show a guest the door but you wouldn't be Liv if you stuck to a pattern in a robotic fashion. Your independent-mindedness (and commensurate unpredictability) is an essential ingredient of your divine Drususness.

[Scotty]

It is a little interesting but as far as I can tell our entire office is pretty much bummed out this morning. Odd that an entire group of people that helps not-for-profits would be that way, isn't it? An entire group of people that just likes to help other people is sad this morning.

I wonder why that is?

-Scott

[Darren]

First of all, deepest sympathies to all of you Americans (even those who voted for the incumbent president) on the re-election of Bush. It is a national catastrophe for you and a global catastrophe for the rest of us who watched helplessly as the wrong choices were made again.
I think your media is largely to blame for failing to ram home the basic truths about the USA's global impact - esp. with respect to the environment, social justice, international law and "world peace".
Four more years - yes that's probably enough to set off the definitive decline of the American Empire. You are now over extended, engaged or implicated in too many conflict zones to cope, especially with your record budget deficit.
All we can hope for now is that the descent will not be too rough!
Imagine getting worked up over the issues of gay marriage and abortion when conservative estimates of the Iraqi death toll due to the invasion put it at over the hundred thousand mark! So the message is - meddle in people's private lives and choices at home and literally to hell with the rest of the world! It is indeed a very sad day.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Farren

And Liv, perhaps its my state (mildly intoxicated) but I read exactly the same thing into your comment that Goliath did. Fine, logic dictates it would be slightly out of character for you to show a guest the door but you wouldn't be Liv if you stuck to a pattern in a robotic fashion. Your independent-mindedness (and commensurate unpredictability) is an essential ingredient of your divine Drususness.

Hey! Don't think you can flatter me into blushing prettily at being called erratic. It wouldn't be slightly out of character; it would be outlandishly out of character.

That's cool, though. Goliath got my meaning later and I confirmed his understanding was correct. If I were more erratic, I'd suggest a group hug.

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally Posted by Scotty

It is a little interesting but as far as I can tell our entire office is pretty much bummed out this morning. Odd that an entire group of people that helps not-for-profits would be that way, isn't it? An entire group of people that just likes to help other people is sad this morning.

I wonder why that is?

-Scott

That is about the most depressing thing I've ever heard.

[Scotty]

Sorry Nil.

I was wondering. Did the "founding fathers" feel the same way about their government?

-Scott

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

That's cool, though. Goliath got my meaning later and I confirmed his understanding was correct. If I were more erratic, I'd suggest a group hug.

Yay, a group hug!

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Farren

Yeah but she didn't give indication that she likes Bree too.

Well, I can't speak for lisarea here - maybe she does like Bree overall, maybe she doesn't.

Taken in isolation, her post was pure venom.

Oh, honey, lisarea ain't got nothing on the venom I shot Bree in that thread you didn't read. Seriously.

Yet, several days later, we were exchanging astrology chat. Go figure.

As partial as I am to Lisa's rants, I only enjoy them without a guilty conscience when their targets are scattershot - a whole demographic or uninvolved person. I must admit that they make me uncomfortable when they're so honed and targeted on someone who has such obvious merit in many departments.

Hey, I've been at the end of her spear a few times. So what? I still like her a whole hell of a lot. Even if she can whip my ass thrice round the globe, leaving me bruised and battered and licking my wounds.

In this, I'm way more sympathetic to lisarea's perspective than I am to Bree's, and I agree with lisarea 100%.

Shit, I bit my tongue when I saw Bree's post in here. I'm going to have a good day and get on with my life as I resign myself to a world with Bush for the next 4 more years. But, damn, for a moment I wanted kick out - hard.

Lisarea was actually more measured and restrained than I would have been had I allowed myself to take the bait. And I don't have a child who may have to go to war for the PNAC on a lie. I don't have that most horrible fear in my cushy little kiwi world.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Farren

Cool it Lisa. I didn't read the "A non-voter and proud of it" thread beyond the OP and I'm glad I didn't because that means I'm reading this in an emotionally unclouded state. Given the length of the thread (I just searched) I suspect it got to the very controversial stage.

Farren, you know I like you, right? So know I'm not ascribing malicious motivations to you, but don't you ever tell me to cool it. You are not privvy to my state of mind, and I can assure you that I'm not histrionic. I'm mad rational.

As to that thread, yes, it did get to the controversial stage. And I did disagree with Bree's conclusions and with her justifications, but I believe that I at least remained patient and understanding, for the most part. She may have been attacked, but not by me. I know you didn't claim this, but I say this in case that was your assumption.

Just about every time one of her arguments was addressed directly, she dodged by either bringing up some other objection, or ignoring it entirely with one-off arguments like "same shit, different flavors."

In fact, I got the distinct impression that she wasn't even reading anything but the flames.

The truth is Bree is cool. I can say this with some certainty because I've been reading her posts for about four years (since I joined IIDB). She's cool in a whole lot of ways. That she's a carrier for a single meme (voting in national elections is a waste of time) that's very not cool in your (and my) opinion doesn't make her a complete fucking asshole. Bree the person is a fuckload more than her antipathy to voting.

I know she's cool in many ways, and I never said she wasn't. I do, however, find her position on this issue untenable, and her attitude in the post I replied to arrogant, inconsiderate, and ignorant.

Yes, many of us did expect a different outcome. People who are more familiar with the system than she is. People who chose to participate in the process.

I do resent her response a great deal, because I see it as denigrating to those of us who were naive enough to care about the outcome, or to believe that the results could be different.

As precious as Bree's vote is, the truth is the biggest culprits in the clusterfuck that is contemporary US politics are fundamentalists and the hatemongering fuckholes in charge of the Republican party in the USA right now, not Bree. As angry as you are about the outcome of this election, don't eat your own.

Apathetic voters are not my own, though. My own are the people who did what they could, rather than blowing the whole thing off. My own are people like my brother who volunteered for the Kerry campaign all day yesterday and the days leading up, despite the fact that he has a massive presentation due on his PhD today that will undoubtedly suffer for it. He hasn't fucking slept. And I take great offense to people denigrating his efforts, and the efforts of everyone else who worked so hard to bring about change.

I'm convinced that your ideological enemies had as many, if not more apathy, given the dramatic registration figures for the Democrats in this election. The results of this election are a symptom of the sickness of fundamentalism, ignorance and stupidity in the US of A. Attitudes like Bree's are an exaserbating factor, not the primary cause.

Of course. Attitudes such as Bree's are less odious than the attitudes of those who got out the hate vote. So?

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Nil Desperandum

While those near naked men in that pic are a little to muscled for my liking, I'm still finding myself rather turned on by that image.

[Nil Desperandum]

Originally Posted by lunachick

While those near naked men in that pic are a little to muscled for my liking, I'm still finding myself rather turned on by that image.

Ok, these guys are a little less muscled...

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Scotty

It is a little interesting but as far as I can tell our entire office is pretty much bummed out this morning. Odd that an entire group of people that helps not-for-profits would be that way, isn't it? An entire group of people that just likes to help other people is sad this morning.

I wonder why that is?

-Scott

Oh, man. I'm so sorry. As ND said, that is really depressing. And kinda says it all, huh.

[Petra]

I just had a thought!

One o'them Indian astrologers reckoned that Bush would not be able to sit through his entire second term for some reason.

Either he's gonna die or something, or he's gonna be impeached!


Yes! I'm a believer!

[lisarea]

Farren, I am slow. Very very slow. I just realized that you are misunderstanding something very fundamental here.

I do not hate Bree. There are very few people in this world that I hate.

There are plenty of ideas I hate, though. I hate Bree's attitude and her stance on that specific issue, and I am deeply offended by her dismissive response.

I don't hate HER. Never have.

[Darren]

That's wishful thinking. Perhaps he'll just develop a bad case of haemorrhoids.

[SharonDee]

Originally Posted by lunachick

I just had a thought!

One o'them Indian astrologers reckoned that Bush would not be able to sit through his entire second term for some reason.

Either he's gonna die or something, or he's gonna be impeached!

Personally, I think we should all pitch in and send a crate of pretzels to the White House.