What Can You Say, They Do What They Want

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by TomJoe

Ah, so it was a prejudicial comment. Made for my benefit because I'm a Christian? So if I were black, I suppose you would have used a reference to the Black Panthers or something?

No, and I'm sorry you read it as such. I used Christianity because it's the largest "group" in our country that has extremist factions and that is involved in politics and enjoys popular support. For example, abortion clinic bombers are extremists in the larger group of fundamentalists in the larger group Christianity and many politicians are Christian. I would not not hold all politicians, or all Christians, or all fundamentalist Christians responsible for the acts of the extremists. It was not a personal thing, it was the best analogy I could find within the US.

Might I suggest you not look for persecution, as you may see it where it doesn't exist.

Ok, now show me the Hezbollah statement of condemnation in regards to the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers.

You're right, I cannot find such a condemnation. I mainatin that does not mean that all of Hezbollah or all of Lebanon is responsible for those kidnappings. Please see my last post to you.

[California Tanker]

Just to thicken the plot, the weapon which hit INS Hanit, and presumably sank the Cambodian-flagged Egyptian-manned merchant vessel ("Noor Light?") in the same attack has been identified as a C.802 missile. This is a moderately large anti-ship cruise missile which has only been exported to one country: Iran. The thing is 7 meters long, weighs in at 3/4 of a ton, and apparently a few of them have been sitting in Lebanon for a while. Getting them to Lebanon must have been interesting as well.

NTM

[Petra]

Russell Brown, a local journo/writer, made this entry in his blog today: http://publicaddress.net/default,3355.sm#post3355

It contains some good links, so take a look.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by California Tanker

I think part of the problem is that the last time two Israeli soldiers were captured by Hisbullah, they were executed and Israel traded some 500 prisoners for the return of their bodies. The quiet method didn't work last time, and they have no intention of seeing the same again. Ergo, why not try something a bit different? Trading didn't seem to work last time, some say it just enourages more.

Well they're not trying something "a bit different", they are trying a very old tactic, one that has also failed many times in the past.

The difference between Northern Ireland and Israel is the Irish could see that giving up their claim on Northern Ireland would not result in wholesale disenfranchisement or persecution of Northern Irish Catholics. The British government had changed to a policy of operating in good faith for several years prior to the vote in Ireland.

The Palestinians have no such assurances. They negotiated a deal with Rabin only to see Rabin assassinated and his successor renege on the deal. They have seen Israel seize land and build settlements and call it self-defense, they have seen Israel bulldoze farmland and shoot 14-year-old girls and call it self-defense. They can see that Arabs with Israeli citizenship are treated like second-class citizens in their own country. They have no reason to trust Israel, so forsaking violence like the Irish did is not nearly as attractive to them.

Similarly, Israel knows from past and recent experience they cannot trust Hamas or Hizbollah. So from a national security standpoint it makes sense to try to rescue their soldiers and also eliminate the ability of Hamas and Hezbollah to attack them. Some of the operations they are doing now are probably with that aim, but as usual some of the military operations have more to do with making Israeli citizens feel good than with actual strategic objectives.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by California Tanker

Just to thicken the plot, the weapon which hit INS Hanit, and presumably sank the Cambodian-flagged Egyptian-manned merchant vessel ("Noor Light?") in the same attack has been identified as a C.802 missile. This is a moderately large anti-ship cruise missile which has only been exported to one country: Iran. The thing is 7 meters long, weighs in at 3/4 of a ton, and apparently a few of them have been sitting in Lebanon for a while. Getting them to Lebanon must have been interesting as well.

NTM

So who is exporting them to Iran? Who makes these? Who sells these? Who is providing the expertise to arm and launch?

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

So who is exporting them to Iran? Who makes these? Who sells these? Who is providing the expertise to arm and launch?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-802.htm

China. Iran and North Korea (according to this website) have jointly worked on upgrades.

Wiki article on C-802.

[godfry n. glad]

Thanks, TJ.

[Puck]

By getting the different 'sides' to agree to some kind of cease fire, we are mearly postponing more violence in future. How many more gernerations of children will be killed by bombs? The whole mess over there has pissed me off for years. There is no excuse for it. There is no excuse for sendng money over to any of them. They will continue to squabble like snotty kids.

I used to be angry that we didn't do more to get them to come to the table and work out the problems. But I've about decided that no matter who tries to get them to get along, it ain't gonna work.

A couple days ago, I watched things escalate once again. And this time, I yelled to no one in particular, "Fuck it, let them kill each other. Let them have a full blown war, winner takes all. Fuck it. All we should do is tell them that the first one to use a nuke will be attacked by us, 'cause we ain't having them dirty up the air with that crap".

I just don't care anymore. There is no fixing that mess, because none of them really want to fix it. I just want to see it over with, so babies born 20, 40, 100 years from now, won't die by burning.

Turn 'em loose at each other. Fuck it. Let it get finished. Common sense hasn't worked. Maybe a full blown war will get it into their heads that this shit is stupid.

[TomJoe]

Originally Posted by Puck

Maybe a full blown war will get it into their heads that this shit is stupid.

Doubtful.

I read the following Time article which presents things pretty clearly. I think the following (emphasis mine) is pretty ominous:

Originally Posted by article

But whatever encouragement they may have had, neither Hamas nor Hizballah ever needs a specific justification for striking Israel. Attacking Israel is, for each, its raison d'être. And the groups' tacticians do not need to think that a particular strike will achieve a particular result. They take a long view, common among Islamists: over time decades or even centuries, if necessary Israel will crumble. Israelis will lose their fortitude under the pressure of attacks, give up and go back to Europe or Russia or, if their roots are in the Middle East, agree to live within an Islamic state. Regardless, the fighters' reward is not here on earth in this lifetime, but in heaven.

[Puck]

That may (or may not for all I really know) be the Hamas/Hizballah view. But what is the Israelis view long term? Is it really any better? They show little willingness to accept that they took livelyhoods/homes/land from the Arabs in the area, and those folks ain't gonna get over it any time soon. I dont' see a realistic compromise coming from either side. Just more of the same for generations to come. Burning up each others babies. Everyone making excuses for their assitude. Fuck 'em. Let 'em duke it out, so long as they don't nuke it out. If one side gets their collective butts throughly stomped, I bet they'd reconsider things.

Let it all go. What is worse, one big murdur scene, or a series of them over generations? Get it over with already. Blaming either side without taking into consideration the other side isn't going to make it any better. They are, both sides of this shit, WRONG. Deadly wrong. Stupidly wrong. And babies are dying horrible deaths. There is no excuse for it all. I'm tired of the justifications from each side.

There's babies dying, dammit. Little babies. Tiny tots. Being cooked alive by these assholes. Peace talks will only keep it all going. Take off the leashes and let 'em have at.