why do you want to do anything about the war between israel and lebanon?

[The Jesus Lawyer]

why? it is a problem between people you most likely will never meet, fighting over things you can't fully understand, over territory that doesn't yield much.

so...

why is it important to solve their problems when there are just as many bad ones here? i bet more americans are shot on the street each day than are killed in all violent acts going on in israel and lebanon. i don't have stats, but i'm willing to bet

caring can be criminal.

so...why is it important to us here when we have our own huge problems?

i ask honestly...

i think it is intentional misdirection and a way to manipulate the masses...


michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

i guess if you want to do something- pray or send good vibes. save your time and action for people in your own backyard. maybe your example will inspire others to do the same...

michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

sometimes i get the feeling we spread ourselves too thin...i think we do it intentionally and it is the intention of others to allow that to happen...

i think it is easier to talk about fixing problems outside yourself than actually acting to correct your own. the news is always willing to oblige...

michael

[viscousmemories]

You're presenting a false dichotomy. There's no reason someone can't worry about domestic and international concerns.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

no there is no reason. well there are reasons, but people can do what they want. i am simply presenting my take on things. it is not false to me. worry all you want...that's the point anyhow. the problem is in the TIME and EFFORT put into doing that.

i believe more should be spent at home...by ALL people...

[The Jesus Lawyer]

it is obvious this was inspired by another thread, but i don't look down on anyone involved in it. i realize it was born out of concern for fellow human beings. i know the intentions were honorable and good. i just see it as part of the problem, a problem i participate in completely, one of misdirection. i tihnk we all want to see a peaceful world, but nobody is changing their actions or views even though they are proven to not change anything.

i, for myself, am doing something about that. i opened my eyes and think i see the problem. then again, they are my eyes...

michael

[viscousmemories]

Okay, so it's just a sweeping generalization. Either way it's fallacious reasoning. There's no way you can know how everyone divides their time and effort, so how can you be so sure that ALL people need to put more time and effort into resolving domestic problems than they already are? On what are you basing this claim? The fact that there are more threads here about the situation in the Middle East than domestic social problems? I mean that's a fair assessment, I think, but not necessarily reflective of how even a majority of the people here divide their time and effort overall, much less people in general.

[Watser?]

Indeed.

Plus, this is our backyard. For Europeans they are the neighbors: especially since Cyprus joined Israel and Lebanon are next door to us. Cyprus is taking in thousands of refugees. I am also concerned with the conflict in Cyprus by the way, but that has been a cold war for quite a while. And I was certainly concerned with the conflicts in former Yugoslavia, also wars where there was no good guys or bad guys but certainly weak and strong guys.
Another reason is that we are supporting Israel (most favoured trading partner) and are not trying to stop them. We should IMO, not just because of moral reasons, but out of self-interest. It has an impact on relations between the West and the Arab and Muslim world. It has an impact on relations between Jews and Muslims here and on relations between either of those minority groups and the Christian/Unbelieving majority in this country. It has an impact on the war in Iraq. It has an impact on the relations between the US and the EU and on relations within the EU.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

really? well i use news as my litmus for how people see the world. i see that news reflected in this very forum.

i am well aware that there are people who are practicing what i preach, but judging the world through the eyes of news, not taking sides but looking at the very problems presented, the problems that people take on as naturally being their own because it comes into their living rooms...that's what i base it on.

michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Watser?

Indeed.

Plus, this is our backyard. For Europeans they are the neighbors: especially since Cyprus joined Israel and Lebanon are next door to us. Cyprus is taking in thousands of refugees. I am also concerned with the conflict in Cyprus by the way, but that has been a cold war for quite a while. And I was certainly concerned with the conflicts in former Yugoslavia, also wars where there was no good guys or bad guys but certainly weak and strong guys.
Another reason is that we are supporting Israel (most favoured trading partner) and are not trying to stop them. We should IMO, not just because of moral reasons, but out of self-interest. It has an impact on relations between the West and the Arab and Muslim world. It has an impact on relations between Jews and Muslims here and on relations between either of those minority groups and the Christian/Unbelieving majority in this country. It has an impact on the war in Iraq. It has an impact on the relations between the US and the EU and on relations within the EU.

and everything you mention, every problem...was presented to you as being important. would it be if that never happened?

countries aren't neighbours...they are competitors.

there is nothing wrong with globalization and making the world smaller. there is nothing wrong with seeing us all as neighbours. that is part of my own philosophy. the problem is, to get good neighbours you need to be one...i think that gets overlooked way too much.

michael

[Watser?]

[QUOTE=The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Watser?

there is nothing wrong with globalization and making the world smaller. there is nothing wrong with seeing us all as neighbours. that is part of my own philosophy. the problem is, to get good neighbours you need to be one...i think that gets overlooked way too much.

michael

Right. And good neighbors interfere when their neighbors are bashing each other's heads in, they don't stand around and do nothing

[The Jesus Lawyer]

right...but more of your own neighbours are doing that, but i don't see too much getting posted about that at ANY forum i post at...

anyhow...off to fix my bicycle...i need to take pics and see beauty again


michael

[Sock Puppet]

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

right...but more of your own neighbours are doing that, but i don't see too much getting posted about that at ANY forum i post at...

I don't know of any of our neighbors that has an economy that would collapse without US aid and EU preferential treatment, destroying another neighbor using US bombs, protected by US vetos in the Security Council...
Could be that

[The Jesus Lawyer]

and it is your REAL neighbour doing that...where does the problem start? who makes those bombs? who support the people in power? who needs it to be that way to be sold the illusion of comfort and of being better off?

back to the bike

michael

[LionsDen]

why do you want to do anything about the war between israel and lebanon?

I don't think Israel needs any help. The terrorists do, and they aren't receiving any from the people who duped them into fighting.

I don't want to do anything about the war except pray gratitude for low casualties among the innocent and celebrate victory over the terrorists.

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

it is obvious this was inspired by another thread, but i don't look down on anyone involved in it. i realize it was born out of concern for fellow human beings. i know the intentions were honorable and good. i just see it as part of the problem, a problem i participate in completely, one of misdirection.

What are you talking about? How do you participate due to misdirection???

i tihnk we all want to see a peaceful world, but nobody is changing their actions or views even though they are proven to not change anything.

Welcome to the real world where dialog and talk don't bring peace or resolve conflicts. Is that a new discovery for you?

The solution to the middle east conflict is for the good guys to win... to kill off the bad guys. When the survivors realize they are dead meat, they have two choices: die or make peace. Until then, the liberal democrat rhetoric about talking to terrorists is pointless.

I prefer victory!

i, for myself, am doing something about that. i opened my eyes and think i see the problem. then again, they are my eyes...

michael

You think you see the problem? You are going to do something? Um, you aren't planning to do something to change politicians are you? You don't have plans to use a gun, do you?

Leave the 'doing something' to the professionals in the IDF. They'll bring peace as soon as they're finished mopping up.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by LionsDen

You think you see the problem? You are going to do something? Um, you aren't planning to do something to change politicians are you? You don't have plans to use a gun, do you?

careful son.


michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

and pretty shameful that you even see that as a solution. i just think people need to take harder looks at things and share what they see with their neighbours.

your non-jesus streak continues...

michael

[Fibonacci]

The simple answer to your post is because we care. Why do we care? Because we choose to. Sure you can choose to not care and go on with your life. That is fine. I will not judge you for that. It is your right, your choice to make.

I agree with your point that there are many problems that are much closer to home that we should be giving our energy to, and with that in mind it is important to be mindful and compassionate in our daily lives, but that does not mean we should ignore world events as if they don't effect us. If this thing manages to blow up into a much wider and serious conflict and it interupts the flow of oil out of that region, you'd better believe that we will all be effected by it. Not to mention the subtler effects this type of violence has on our society subconsciously.

We have things pretty good here in America, and as a result we take a lot of things for granted. Because we are the most influential and powerful country right now I feel we have a responsibility to do the right thing. To set an example for the world to follow. Imagine what kind of world it would be if everyone followed our example. Have we set a good example? What if countries started invading each other in pre-emptive wars based on faulty intelligence because they honestly *thought* the other country might be a threat at some point in the future. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? Theoretically the responsibility for the actions of our government falls to every single citizen of this country. Whether you choose to deny that responsibility is your choice.

Obviously it's an ideological war. I'm an idealist. I'll admit that, and you can laugh at me... whatever. I believe that we as a species can evolve beyond our monkey instincts. It's a choice. People say there will never be peace in the world, but that is only because they believe thats the case. If everyone believes peace is possible then suddenly it is.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

who said i didn't care? who says caring is always a good thing? seems the people that get far in life show it the least. must be something to their thinking. their problem is they rule the world in a deceitful and manipulative way. they care about what is best for them and theirs and do what it takes to achieve that, by not caring about what's best for the rest of us. they do it according to the rules we as a people put forth. we set the stage. we are the actors. we boo and applause accordingly.

maybe if people started putting their care where it counted and weren't distracted by images that play on the kindness of good people that keep themselves distracted with the bad of others, the world could really change.

i believe in peace. i believe in humanity. i believe it starts at home. all the distraction on the tv does is force you to take sides and divide over something you can't help. only they can help themselves. caring and empathy is fine and dandy, a noble trait in a good person, but it doesn't get the job done when it is placed somewhere it can't help. you leaders aren't listening, but maybe your neighbour will.

im a dreamer. so sue me.

michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

i am not saying any of it isn't happening or important, but i think if people everywhere fixed the problems at home, there wouldn't be these problems to begin with. it is obvious that you can't really turn away from this. we are forced into this situation. the problem i see is how much we see it as a problem over there and how it can be fixed over there...i think it needs to be fixed at home. you have to have a clean house before you can comment on the state of others...

you give the example of the flow of oil being important, which it is. it would be a problem to the CONSUMER if it were shut off. the consumer decides what is important. until we are willing to change, why should anybody else?

michael

[The Jesus Lawyer]

anyhow...peace to the people in lebanon and israel. i hope they choose to look inside and find the strength to make change. i hope we all can. peace to the planet earth

g'nite...

michael

[Fibonacci]

Ok Michael I think I misinterpretted your intention a bit. Thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer

i believe in peace. i believe in humanity. i believe it starts at home. all the distraction on the tv does is force you to take sides and divide over something you can't help. only they can help themselves. caring and empathy is fine and dandy, a noble trait in a good person, but it doesn't get the job done when it is placed somewhere it can't help. you leaders aren't listening, but maybe your neighbour will.

im a dreamer. so sue me.

I agree. It all starts locally. In my original post in the other thread I mention the importance of getting involved in local politics. Certainly connecting with your neighbors and sharing ideas is a great thing. I don't watch tv. Most of my info I gather via the web, and even so I have my filters on all the time. You have to understand the agendas behind the major news outlets, and be willing to dig a little deeper to get the complete picture.

However I still don't agree with you that we can't help. Every small action helps. In an ideological war, every mind matters. And with the internet these days communication is so much easier. Yeah I can go talk to my neighbor and maybe change 1 mind, but If post here to this forum I can connect and share with so many others. As of right now my original thread has 231 views. Maybe it's helping, maybe it's not, but at least it's an attempt.

[Watser?]

You have some good points there Michael, only...

i believe in peace. i believe in humanity. i believe it starts at home. all the distraction on the tv does is force you to take sides and divide over something you can't help

We HAVE already taken sides. The countries of Europe and especially the US have taken the Israeli side in a big way and are being seen to by the rest of the world (and also by most of Europe itself) as accomplices. I only wish we would STOP taking sides.

[The Jesus Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Fibonacci

However I still don't agree with you that we can't help.

lol...my whole point is about helping. in fact, as i see it, my kind of helping would have a bigger impact...

michael