Goddamn lax gun laws

[Beth]

These kids are behind my house discharging real killing bullets into a dirt pile in the property behind my house
And hey! it is legal! Real good, a teen fucks up, hits my window, kills me or my kids, no big deal. Hey!

I think we are too damn lax in this type of situation and it pisses me off.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by Beth

These kids are behind my house discharging real killing bullets into a dirt pile in the property behind my house
And hey! it is legal! Real good, a teen fucks up, hits my window, kills me or my kids, no big deal. Hey!

I think we are too damn lax in this type of situation and it pisses me off.

How sure are you it's legal?

While gun ownership laws are generally lax, gun discharge laws generally are not.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by dave_a

How sure are you it's legal?

While gun ownership laws are generally lax, gun discharge laws generally are not.

I am assuming it is, but I called 911 and they are sending an officer out. We live in the unincororated part of the county. City laws do not always apply out here in the country.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by Beth

I am assuming it is, but I called 911 and they are sending an officer out. We live in the unincororated part of the county. City laws do not always apply out here in the country.

These laws regarding discharing a firearm are generally set by the munincipality so it's impossible for me to say offhand what the regs in your corner of the world are, but in general the laws seem to reflect the idea that nothing can be discharged if there is property within the normal range of the round unless an impenetrable backdrop (like a large birm) is used.

As an example a friend of mine lives in a rural area and has 25 acres with no neighbors to the rear for miles. He used to be able to fire anything he wanted. A subdivision went up on the opposite side of the street and now it is shotgun only due to the shorter distance such rounds can travel.

I am interested in how far this neighbor is from your property and what the cops have to say about the situation.

While I am definitely pro gun rights, I am not for irresponsible use in any way.

[Beth]

Well, there is no gun law in this state and no county ordinance regarding to this. It is absolutely legal. The deputy said that they are in their rights thanks to the blasted NRA and gun lobbying.

[Beth]

Oh, they were firing about 150 feet away from my house.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by Beth

Well, there is no gun law in this state and no county ordinance regarding to this. It is absolutely legal. The deputy said that they are in their rights thanks to the blasted NRA and gun lobbying.

How far away from you are they? I can believe there is no law at the county level if you live in a rural area where properties are far apart.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by dave_a

How far away from you are they? I can believe there is no law at the county level if you live in a rural area where properties are far apart.

His property line begins about twenty feet away from my back door.

Dave, it is the entire state. Apparantly there is discharge law in this entire county and in this state.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by Beth

His property line begins about twenty feet away from my back door.

Dave, it is the entire state. Apparantly there is discharge law in this entire county and in this state.

I would find it more likely that the officer you talked to was ignorant or lazy.

Of course I don't know the laws where you live or even where you live, but I can't imagine a jurisdiction where a firearm could be fired when the next house is 150' away in the direction the gun is being fired.

I live in Wisconsin which is a huge hunting state and you don't get far politically if you aren't a strong 2nd amendment supporter, but we have discharge laws everywhere. My neighbor to the rear is also about 150' from me and I can't fire ANY firearm including a bow or BB gun legally. I can't imagine thinking it would be a good idea to try it even if it was legal.

In any event I am sorry you are going through this, it isn't at all comfortable having folks shoot guns that close to you. At the very least these people are insufferably rude. Still if you feel your safety is jeapordized I would encourage you to investigate the law further. I am not saying you are wrong, but I do find it impossible to believe there is no law governing minimum distances from people and property for firearm discharges. Those sorts of laws are among the few laws that I consider "common sense" gun laws.

[Beth]

He told me the only thing I can possibly do is call the EPA and report lead discharge in the land. Well, aside from maybe making a noise violation complaint. The thing is here, we have to appear in court personally as witnesses and the judge is likely to throw it out. This is a redneck area. The judges have similar attitudes.

And thanks.

[Adora]

That's just fucking scary.

[wade-w]

Well, the relevant section (chapter 790) of the Florida code seems to say that your neighbors are within their rights. Unfortunately. This seems to be a very lax law, as far as I'm concerned. Here is what the law says on public discharge of a firearm:

1) Except as provided in subsection (2) or subsection (3), any person who knowingly discharges a firearm in any public place or on the right-of-way of any paved public road, highway, or street or whosoever knowingly discharges any firearm over the right-of-way of any paved public road, highway, or street or over any occupied premises is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. This section does not apply to a person lawfully defending life or property or performing official duties requiring the discharge of a firearm or to a person discharging a firearm on public roads or properties expressly approved for hunting by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or Division of Forestry.

(2) Any occupant of any vehicle who knowingly and willfully discharges any firearm from the vehicle within 1,000 feet of any person commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) Any driver or owner of any vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, who knowingly directs any other person to discharge any firearm from the vehicle commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

So as long as they aim at a dirt bank, they aren't firing over your residence and thus are not violating this statute. At least, I assume thats what the officer you talked to thought.

Now, you said these were kids, and mentioned "teenagers." Are they under 16? If so, was there an adult there supervising? Because this statute may be relevant:

(3) A minor under 18 years of age may not possess a firearm, other than an unloaded firearm at his or her home, unless:

(a) The minor is engaged in a lawful hunting activity and is:

1. At least 16 years of age; or

2. Under 16 years of age and supervised by an adult.

(b) The minor is engaged in a lawful marksmanship competition or practice or other lawful recreational shooting activity and is:

1. At least 16 years of age; or

2. Under 16 years of age and supervised by an adult who is acting with the consent of the minor's parent or guardian.

(c) The firearm is unloaded and is being transported by the minor directly to or from an event authorized in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b).

These are state laws; I'll take your word that your local jurisdiction has no additional legislation. I have to agree with you that these statutes are ridiculously lax.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by wade-w

Well, the relevant section (chapter 790) of the Florida code seems to say ...

These are state laws; I'll take your word that your local jurisdiction has no additional legislation. I have to agree with you that these statutes are ridiculously lax.

At the state level I don't think the laws are too lax. What I find too lax is that there is nothing at the city/county level that is more stringent. And I wouldn't take Beth at her word that there are no laws at the county level because my impression is her belief that this is so is based upon what one officer said.

At the least I would do a web search entering the county and state with the word law and see what turns up. A call to the attorney/prosecutor's office requesting information would also likely turn up better info than the word of one cop.

My neighbor is a cop and the laws here forbid using any type of firework that flies or explodes, but from what he said he routinely does nothing about complaints if the people firing them off aren't launching them at someone.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by dave_a

At the state level I don't think the laws are too lax. What I find too lax is that there is nothing at the city/county level that is more stringent. And I wouldn't take Beth at her word that there are no laws at the county level because my impression is her belief that this is so is based upon what one officer said.

At the least I would do a web search entering the county and state with the word law and see what turns up. A call to the attorney/prosecutor's office requesting information would also likely turn up better info than the word of one cop.

My neighbor is a cop and the laws here forbid using any type of firework that flies or explodes, but from what he said he routinely does nothing about complaints if the people firing them off aren't launching them at someone.

No, I knew there was no law. That is why I made the initial post saying it was legal. I called the police in hopes that I was wrong or the ordinances had changed. They had not. From what I understand in my reading, most of the state is like this.

The officer talked to me for a very long time explaining things in detail. He offered to do a noise violation, meaning, he offered to hunt the owner down sincew I did not know his residential address and serve him with noise violation papers but he explained that I must appear in court and that the judge more than likely will throw it out since the man is within his legal rights. He said that contacting EPA may be my only option if it is a nuisance because the bullets are being shot into the earth and the lead could leech into the auquifer. He also said that he has a major that routinely fires off his automatic on one of his deputy's properties that is right next to a trailer park and that the trailer park people complain all the time, but the major is withing his legal rights and that the officer can, unfortunately, not stop it. The way he spoke, it seemed that he was not in favor of the gun law, but it fell into the 'right to bear arms'.

Wade, thank you. It appeared the kids were at least 16. They appeared to be in the 16-17 age group.

[godfry n. glad]

Um... Have you approached the property owner at all?

It could be that the property owner is unaware of the teens using that part of his/her property for such purposes.

Just make it clear that you consider their firing in the direction of your house at such a close distance as unnecessarily dangerous. Ask the owner to prevent this kind of activity on his property for your peace of mind. And his.

If the property owner refuses, I think I might place my request in writing, delineating the risk and noting that he had been asked to prevent the risk and refused and that he/she would be liable for any property damage or personal harm arising from such firearm activities he/she had been asked to terminate. Send a copy to him/her and to your attorney.

Attorneys: Couldn't this kind of behavior be considered "reckless endangerment"?

I'd also be tempted to "return fire"....that is, do some target practice into the opposite side of this berm that the teens are firing into, preferrably simultaneously to their discharge activity. Rash, but given the unwillingness of the authorities to terminate a high-risk situation, it might even out the risks and make it clear to them (but I doubt it). "Mutual Reckless Endangerment - MRE". 'Course, you probably don't have this option available, huh?

Also.... Bring this issue to the attention of your state representative and your county commissioner. They have the responsibility to legislate safe and reasonable gun use...despite what the NRA may believe. You are being placed in a situation of unnecessarily high risk because of the inaction of your elected representatives.

(see here: http://www.motherjones.com/news/spec...a.sidebar.html)

godfry

[Beth]

They aare at it again. I both want to cry and move.

Godfrey, a letter would do squat with this guy, but thank you. The owner is out there today with the kids. He also could give a flying fig about his neighbors. His culverting of a natural creek caused severe flooding around here after Hurricane Jeanne. We did the EPA and SwiftMud route with trying to get him to correct it. He appartly had connections and we would have to spend major money to hire a lawyer to file a class action suit.

I wish I could fire into the berm, but we do not own a gun and the berm is on his property.

He also allows a neighbor to set off quarter stick of dynamite from time to time in that dirt pile. It is sporatic and tolerated by the peeps out here, so, calling the cops does nuttin'. The guy only does it once and tinkers for a while and leaves, not much evidence for a report.

[godfry n. glad]

Hmmm.... I thought as much.

As for the berm being on his property, I'd say that doesn't matter squat, given the attitude of the law enforcement personnel in your area. But then, my idea was half-fast anyway.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be on the phone to one or more of my county commissioners, making pointed comments about responsible gun use and irresponsible county officials. Reckless endangerment is what you're dealing with. Got any investigative reporters on the local news rag?

And, yeah... I know the feeling of dealing with dickheads with connections. Legal approaches are for those with money and connections...the majesty of the law is that it prevents the rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges.

godfry

(p.s.- I can't read your linked item because I'm permanently banned from what I consider that shithole of the universe (iidb, in case you're unaware)because they don't like talk of legal ramifications of their own irresponsible behavior.)

[lady cop]

did the deputy suggest perhaps a "disturbing the peace" citation? lame, but sometimes one needs to be creative. i find it astounding a firearm may be discharged near a dwelling. also...why can't deputy ascertain if license is needed for weapons being used? are they rifles, shotguns, handguns?

[Beth]

I'm sorry. I did not know that Godfrey.

Lady Cop, guns do not need to be licensed here, as far as I can recollect. We have a waiting period to buy a gun to do a background check and guns must be registered, but any shmo, even kids, can own guns,...second ammendment. Thing is, a parent can be charged with harmful negligence if a minor is injurred with a gun or has a gun violation. Our family lost my little brother's best friend because a gun cleaning accident. The coroner ruled it a suicide to protect the family from charges being rederred. He and my brother, at 14, owned handguns and rifles.
We destroyed our weapon just shortly before that, my brother's were destroyed soon after.

Anyway, they were firing off a handgun.

[Godless Dave]

One of the attractions of living in the country is being able to discharge a firearm on your property, but you're supposed to do it responsibly and only if you have a big piece of property.

Do guns really need to be registered in Florida? We don't have to do that up here. I don't know what regulations rural areas have for firing outdoors but I'm pretty sure you have to be a good distance from someone else's dwelling.

[wade-w]

I always get suspicious when I hear someone say "gun cleaning accident."

If the kid you referred to was 14 like your brother, then according to the Fla. statute I cited above, he was not supposed to be at home with a loaded weapon without adult supervision. If he was cleaning a loaded weapon, then clearly he was either not being supervised, or what supervision was available was grossly incompetent. If his death was in fact a suicide, his family could still be liable under the statute, since he had a loaded gun in his possession contrary to the same statute.

Gun ownership carries with it a responsibility to follow proper safety rules. For example, the very first thing I do whenever someone hands me a weapon is check to make sure it is not loaded. I do this even if the person who handed it to me just checked the weapon in my presence. After I have checked it, I still treat the weapon as if it is loaded. I never place my finger on the trigger until I am ready to fire, and I never point a weapon at anything I am not willing to shoot. This is basic gun handling 101.

I currently do not own any guns, though I have in the past. If my mental and financial status ever improves, I am sure I will own guns in the future as well. I enjoy blowing holes in innocent pieces of paper. However, guns are not toys, and anyone who treats them as if they are has no business being anywhere near them. Treat them with the proper respect and they are pretty safe. Treat them like a toy, and you are a fatal accident waiting to happen.

Sounds to me as if your neighbors, Beth, think guns are toys.

[Beth]

Well, I love target practice but I do it with a pellet gun or air rifle rather than with a real weapon and even the, I still treat it with respect. Hit someone on the wrong spot on their head you can kill them or severely injure them.

Wade, it was a gun accident rather than suicide, I think. The kid in question was in very good spirits, very religious, and in the happiest time of his life, unless there was something secretly going on that my brother did not know about. Anyway, this kid was walking sunshine and his death affected alot of people. His parents were not charged with a suicidal death. From what I understand, parents are not usually held culpable in a suicidal gun death. But I understand your questioning 'accidental gun cleaning' deaths. My adopted uncle, who was only about five or six years older than I shot himself while cleaning his gun. I had a mad crush on him when I went to visit them in Colorado. Anyway, it still bothers me because I wonder if it was, in fact, an accident.

Just recently I was thinking it was a very good thing, indeed that we do not own a gun. I was in a horrible mental state and if I had owned a gun, in my fury, I probably would have just walked out into the field and shot myself instantly without one thought of what might occur. Guns make things too easy and cause too much pain in my book. Best not to own one. I would hate for one of my kids to enter such a mental state and permanantly end things

[Beth]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

Do guns really need to be registered in Florida? We don't have to do that up here.

Yes. Unless the laws have changed. Possessing an unregistered gun can get you in serious trouble, unless it is some sort of antique.

[wade-w]

I understand Beth. Situations can vary, however. I'd worry about my parents if they didn't have guns. Not for protection against other humans, though. They regularly find signs of mountain lions and bears on their property.

By the way, my father has a shooting range set up on their land, but nobody lives within a couple of miles down range. He also has a free standing building seperate from the house where he does all of his reloading and stores most of his ammo.

[Shaguar]

OK so this is from the land of no gun possesion but I used to have them. Is there not some enforcible code about reckless use or some such. I find it truly bizarre that this can be happening so close to a dwelling, well inside the range of the average pistol.