Question for cops or attorney types

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Beth

I think sexually suggestive poses could fall into the realm of kiddie porn as well, but not quite sure.

They can under federal law, definitely.

I am not sure that the pic of Dave's son could be considerred kiddie porn, but I think a pedophile might find it a pic they would like to look at, unfortunately.

I don't see how it could by any standard be considered kiddie porn unless the bar was set so low plain nudity counted. A pedophile would like to look at any pic of a child, I'm sure, so I don't think that's a reasonable standard either. I mean, it's a good reason to keep those kinds of pics very private (let me know if you ever want them deleted, dave), but not a good legal standard at all.

[lisarea]

While it may be unlikely that anyone would be convicted of producing kiddie porn because of innocent naked pictures, being accused is often enough.

This couple's children were taken away.

I've heard about other cases, too, but I don't have links. There was one woman who actually went to trial for innocent, IIRC, SEMI-nude pictures of her girls. Yes, I'm pretty sure it was pictures of a topless five year old or something like that, but I might be wrong, because I can't find a reference.

I think this is a TV movie about it.

So it happens. It's really very subjective, and when we rely on people's judgement to determine whether something is a crime or not, someone somewhere is going to be screwed at some point. I'm not saying it's avoidable or that there are objective means to determine what's porn and what's just nudity. It's just that that whole grey area can really be a minefield.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by lisarea

While it may be unlikely that anyone would be convicted of producing kiddie porn because of innocent naked pictures, being accused is often enough.

This couple's children were taken away.

And they were ordered to take parenting classes, and they are going to have to take polygraph tests before their kids will be returned to them.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I don't see how it could by any standard be considered kiddie porn unless the bar was set so low plain nudity counted. A pedophile would like to look at any pic of a child, I'm sure, so I don't think that's a reasonable standard either. I mean, it's a good reason to keep those kinds of pics very private (let me know if you ever want them deleted, dave), but not a good legal standard at all.

From an article here about a guy in Canada who was accused:

When Minsk asked what was considered appropriate behaviour, the counsellor said nude pictures of children over 2 were taboo unless they were pictured in the bathroom or in a pool. The living room was out. "They were talking about a boundary", Minsk says, "but nobody convinced me that what I did was wrong".

Kind of scary, huh?

[LadyShea]

I think those beauty pageant type pics with tiny tots all made up and hairsprayed ala Jon Benet Ramsey are way worse than an innocent picture of a happy nude child running around the living room acting silly. Those pics make me totally uncomfortable.

And lisarea, that story you linked to above pretty scary considering "attachment parenting" and extended breastfeeding is a very popular parenting philosophy/method today.

[lady cop]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I think those beauty pageant type pics with tiny tots all made up and hairsprayed ala Jon Benet Ramsey are way worse than an innocent picture of a happy nude child running around the living room acting silly. Those pics make me totally uncomfortable.

And lisarea, that story you linked to above pretty scary considering "attachment parenting" and extended breastfeeding is a very popular parenting philosophy/method today.

although i believe the child was murdered by her parents, they did her up as pedophiles dream.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by lady cop

although i believe the child was murdered by her parents, they did her up as pedophiles dream.

There was a beauty pageant tradition in my hubby's family. After the Jon Bonet murder and seeing the perverse ways these little beauty queens were presented, I told his family that my daughter would not be involved in pageants. I hope that, if anything, the little girl's death helped to raise awareness in parents of little girls.

[lady cop]

child beauty pageants as a whole are probably harmless, but JonBenet was decked out like a $2. hooker for her appearances, they put her in las vegas showgirl costumes and made her face up heavily, i thought it was for the mom's vicarious gratification. they also taught her seductive movements for the stage. i really felt sorry for that little girl's life , which was the proximate cause of her death, IMO.

[livius drusus]

I don't think JonBenet was unique, though. From the tapes I've seen, all the other girls in her pageants were dressed and painted and dancing provocatively too.

I saw an HBO documentary following around some of these pageant girls and their moms - not just little girls but also teenagers - and it was horrendous. If I hear one more so-called mother say it's all her daughter's idea and mommy is just trying to help even as she snaps at her and tells her to work harder or she'll never win, I'll yak.

[Shaguar]

Let's just pretend I am a wannabe TV producer and here is my pitch to NBC, ABC, whoever for a new show here is my pitch.

1) it is all about girls aged 4-13
2) We dress them up like hookers
3) We make them up like pornstars
4) we teach them to mince about on the catwalk in a suggestive manner
5) And we film it all

I would not expect to get past point 3 before the paedophile unvestigation unit was called and quite rightly so. These pageants are truly bizarre and until I saw a documentary over here regarding the Jon Benet case I had no idea they exsisted.

There is a very large groundswell concerning the adult versions such as Miss World etc as demeaning to women so what does that make these.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I mean, it's a good reason to keep those kinds of pics very private (let me know if you ever want them deleted, dave), but not a good legal standard at all.

Nah, I am OK taking my chances. I can't be responsible for what pedos are turned on by. The way I look at it is life is too short to live in fear of stupid stuff. Thanks for the offer though.

And thanks to all for the nice comments about ma boy.